Very low KH and raising it with KH booster

[Cocka2]

Hi all. my tap water is very very soft, i have no kh and gh probably right now and after finding out its bad for the fish i've picked up some nutrafin KH booster, i dosed about 15-20ppm so far, i just dumped it in the tank.. i was wondering if its okay to dump enough in to raise it to 4 degrees, right now its at 1 degrees. but i was just wondering if the fast raise in KH could hurt the fish? also what KH and GH is recomended for dwarf cockatoos? is 4 degrees good enough? what GH booster is recommeneded? i havnt picked up GH booster cause i didnt see it at petsmart.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Cockatoos are white water fish from the Rio Ucayali area and are found in waters with up to 10 - 120 dGH and about 400microS. conductivity (from Mayland and Bork). Mine are happy in rainwater at pH7 and about 140 microS.

Most of us have the other problem, we would like to keep black water fish, but have hard water.

Can you just add some limestone gravel to your tank or filter? it will provide enough hardness and only slowly add KH.

You could make your own GH/KH buffer from sodium bicarbonate and magnesium sulphate, but it doesn't really have any advantage over the limestone gravel.

If you want a quicker dissolving calcium carbonate, the aragonite form produced biologically by snails and coral is more soluble (Oyster shell chicken grit is a good source.)

cheers Darrel

 

[Mud Pie Mama]

Just to answer the first question: NO, I would not just "dump" any strong chemicals right into the tank. I 'd first mix a concentrated solution in a jar w/ some tank water, then add just a small portion. Allow it to mix well, and test the water before adding more. And repeat if needed.

IMHO, it is always better to do any change like that in gradual steps. Perhaps raising 1 degree every few days.

 

[NegativeLogic]

I also have extremely soft tap water (0 GH and 0 KH), pH of about 6.8. I use seachem equilibrium to maintain my hardness, and found that it works well.

When I first started adjusting my hardness I did it extremely gradually over the course of about 2 months. I never add anything directly to the tank, I mix it up in a bucket when I do water changes and ensure it's extremely well-dissolved before adding.

Be careful and go slowly.

 

[Hilde]

Cocka2 what is you ph?

I have soft water with ph of 8.4 from tap. Just found that they need low ph.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have soft water with ph of 8.4 from tap. Just found that they need low ph.

Because to the quoted pH value I would expect that an amount of phosphorus (orthophosphate) has been added to the water supply, due to worries about "plumbosolvency" (basically lead going into solution due to the combination of old lead pipes and acid tap water). The excess of phosphorus mops up any free lead (Pb) and precipitates it out as the insoluble lead phosphate complex ("lead chloropyromorphite, Pb5(PO4)3Cl by simultaneous oxidation and precipitation"). A small amount of sodium bi-carbonate/calcium hydroxide or most probably calcium phosphate has been added to raise the pH above pH7.

You have to be more careful with water with very low KH as there is no reservoir of carbonate buffering and the pH can change very rapidly. Because there is very little buffering an addition of an acid (such as the humic acid from peat) will cause the pH to fall, if you are worried about it falling to far you can add a compound that will disassociate into Mg2+ or CA2+ ions (these raise GH), and a carbonate compound to raise KH.

I don't worry too much about pH or KH/GH, I occasionally measure the conductivity to make sure it is somewhere in the 80 - 150 microS region.

You could use "seachem equilibrium" to raise GH/KH but it is a very expensive option (the major ingredient is almost certainly sodium bicarbonate), and you can do the same much cheaper making your own using for example potassium bicarbonate and magnesium sulphate. I think your fish will be much happier in soft water with a pH above pH7, compared to water which is hard with a high conductivity value, but lower pH.

I you are really worried about the low GH/KH I'd suggest a small amount of oyster shell grit in the filter, this is the aragonite form of calcium carbonate and will raise both GH & KH.

A bit of chemistry
This is also how the buffering of KH by calcium carbonate (CaCO3) works (in this case the acid and conjugated base base are carbonic acid and bicarbonate).

CaCO3, or calcium carbonate is insoluble and is the main constituent of limestone. H2CO3, or carbonic acid is what you get when you dissolve CO2 in water by the following formula:

CO2 + H2O <--> H2CO3 but when you add some KH Ca(HCO3)2 <--> CaCO3 + H2CO3

Ca(HCO3)2, actually Ca++ and HCO3- ions, is soluble and is what you measure as the carbonate hardness (KH) of your aquarium water.

Both of these reactions are at equilibrium and reversible. If you add components to one side of the reaction, you drive it in the other direction. if you add CO2 to an aquarium that has calcium carbonate decorations (e.g. dolomite or coral), you will dissolve some of the CaCO3 to make Ca(HCO3)2 and thereby increase the hardness of water. On the other hand, if you have fairly hard water and the CO2 content is decreased, CaCO3 will precipitate out (limescale) and H2CO3 is released into the water until an equilibrium is eached. In this way, Ca(HCO3)2 acts as a buffer in aquarium water. This is also why hard water resists pH changes much better than soft water, it has a much larger reserve of buffer which we call its carbonate hardness KH.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hilde]

Because to the quoted pH value I would expect that an amount of phosphorus (orthophosphate) has been added to the water supply, due to worries about "plumbosolvency" (basically lead going into solution due to the combination of old lead pipes and acid tap water). The excess of phosphorus mops up any free lead.

Yey, I had read that when the ph is high and the minerals are low that the water has been treated by the city with phosphates. Tis nice to know why.

You could use "seachem equilibrium" to raise GH/KH but it is a very expensive option.
I you are really worried about the low GH/KH I'd suggest a small amount of oyster shell grit in the filter, this will raise both GH & KH.

Well I got seachem equilibrium. When it runs out I will get the oyster shell grit. I have seen it in the bird section of a pet store.

 

[Hilde]

Can you just add some limestone gravel to your tank or filter? it will provide enough hardness and only slowly add KH.

Does it not also increase the PH?

You could make your own GH/KH buffer from sodium bicarbonate and magnesium sulphate, but it doesn't really have any advantage over the limestone gravel.

Isn't epson salts magniesium sulphate? Found that Cichlids don't like salt. I had 1 die after adding epson salts.

If you want a quicker dissolving calcium carbonate, the aragonite form produced biologically by snails and coral is more soluble (Oyster shell chicken grit is a good source.).

Doesn't this increase the ph too?

cheers Darrel[/QUOTE]

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Yes any addition of a base (in this case carbonate ions from the limestone) will increase the pH. Epsom Salts is magnesium sulphate it is the heptahydrate form - MgSO4.7H20 it will raise the GH (the Mg2+ ions), but not the pH or KH. It isn't harmful to fish, so I would think your unfortunate death was a co-incidence.

Limestone gravel is calcite, calcite and aragonite are just the 2 different isomers of calcium carbonate, both will increase both pH and KH.

Your tap supply will never be very suitable for soft water cichlids, because of the the addition of the phosphorus compound, but may well be OK for A. cacatuoides, have you tried them just in your tap water?

cheers Darrel

 

[Hilde]

Your tap supply will never be very suitable for soft water cichlids, because of the the addition of the phosphorus compound, but may well be OK for A. cacatuoides, have you tried them just in your tap water?

This is my first time trying A. cacatuoides. I decided to try them for traded plants for them. Now boiling sphagnum moss to add to the tank via a bag. So the A. cacatuoides are hardier than other cichlids?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Peat filtration works quite well, I use a cotton pillow case 1/2 filled with sphagnum peat left in one of the water butts (I use rainwater, could you?, it would get around the tap water problems).

Apistogramma cacatuoides is a more tolerant species of harder water, because it come from the piedmont ("foothills") of the Andes where the sediment inflow from the (geologically) recently thrown up mountains contains a reasonable amount of calcium, magnesium, potassium etc. Fish from this region will thrive in good quality water, even if it is slightly alkaline.

Have a look at <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Apistogramma_cacatuoides.php> and <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php>

The other water types (and the Apistogramma species they contain) are slightly different. The blackwater rivers of the Amazon basin flow across sediment deposited relatively recently, but any bases present in the largely silica sand sediment have been dissolved and carried away by the acid waters formed when the rain water is mixed with humic acids (from the leaf litter deposited in the water courses by the annual flooding of the forest). This "black-water" is tannin rich, but contains no measurable bases and often has an electrical conductivity below 10 micro. S. and a pH below pH5.

The clear water rivers flowing from the Brazilian and Guyana shields flow across ancient rocks that are extremely hard and produce very little sediment, and these waters are also very low bases, hardness, pH and conductivity.

The fish from both these areas need soft, good quality water and in the case of the black water species acid water particularly to spawn successfully.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hilde]

Hi all,
Peat filtration works quite well, I use a cotton pillow case 1/2 filled with sphagnum peat left in one of the water butts (I use rainwater, could you?, it would get around the tap water problems).

Didn't think of that and it rained today. I shall put a bucket out with some sphagnum peat in it. This is the first year in a long time that it is raining a lot here in Georgia.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'd definitely go for a water butt, in the glasshouses I have 1000 litre ex IBC's and at home 5 domestic water butts, also giving me almost 1000 litres total storage.
cheers Darrel

 

[jmtrops]

It really doesnt seem like your water is a real problem. If the phosphates are to high you can use a phosphate remover or plants may help remove it too. I personaly dont worry about pH but if you want to raise your KH add 1 or 2 table spoons of crushed coral to your filter or a box filter, this should increase the KH enough and keep the pH from crashing.

 

[Hilde]

It really doesnt seem like your water is a real problem. If the phosphates are to high you can use a phosphate remover or plants may help remove it too. I personaly dont worry about pH but if you want to raise your KH add 1 or 2 table spoons of crushed coral to your filter or a box filter, this should increase the KH enough and keep the pH from crashing.

Crushed coral will raise the ph though. Wondering if it is more important to have calcium, since it affect fish metabolism, in the water than having neutral water?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Hilde plants are a good suggestion as they are possibly the single factor that has the greatest effect on water quality. As jmtrops suggests they will take up some of your phosphorus. in fact

It really doesnt seem like your water is a real problem. If the phosphates are to high you can use a phosphate remover or plants may help remove it too. I personaly dont worry about pH but if you want to raise your KH add 1 or 2 table spoons of crushed coral to your filter or a box filter, this should increase the KH enough and keep the pH from crashing.

sounds good advice all around.
Both soft-water fish and plants require both calcium and phosphate (in ATP, regulation of the kidney function, in bones etc.), they just don't require huge amounts.

Why don't you try the fish in your tap water and see how they get on?

in the long run having fish suited to your water is usually more successful than trying to change the water. If you find that the pH is wildly unstable and you want to raise the KH levels again follow jmtrops advice.

I don't think you will have a water problem. For the aquarium care side of it if you follow ApistoBob's suggestions at <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php> you won't go far wrong.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hilde]

moi c pareil, j'ai des problèmes de connexion je suis abonné club-internet1 et lorsque j'allume mon modem le voyant alarm s'allume quelques instants,

Do not click on these links. There are spam and can infect your computer. He can't write in English why then are the links in English. Motives questionable.

 

[Mike Wise]

I removed the offending post and permanently banned the person who posted it. Hilde, you'll notice I also removed the links that were in you warning post.:wink:

 

[Hilde]

You could use "seachem equilibrium" to raise GH/KH but it is a very expensive option.

I am thinking of using Seachem replenish when I run out Seachem equilibrium for it has -
Calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, sodium chloride, potassium chloride.

 

[ed seeley]

I am thinking of using Seachem replenish when I run out Seachem equilibrium for it has -
Calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, sodium chloride, potassium chloride.

Those chemicals will raise the GH but will do nothing for the KH. KH is the carbonate hardness and sodium bicarbonate is an easy way to raise that.