Using Ozone (O3) for treatment

[blueblue]

There're a couple of propositions of using Ozone for treating
apistos with bacteral and virus infections in the apisto forums in Hong Kong.
Many people claimed that Ozone is very very poweful and useful for all kinds of diseases... Are there some experiences to share here? Thanks ^.^

 

[fishgeek]

no personal experience

ozone is a powerful oxidizing agent due to it's chemical structure

oxidation is a damaging process to most living tissue, by this fact it is very useful as a disinfectant and is also toxic to fish
i believe when it is used it is to clear free living organisms from the water column and then must be removed before the water is recirculated to the tanks

it is not suitable for treatment of sick fish

have i missed your question?
andrew

 

[blueblue]

Thanks Andrew for your comments.

Hmm, people here in Hong Kong proposed that O3 can kill many
gems and parasites inside the tank while keeping the fish undamaged when the O3's concentration is carefully monitored and set. The method is to use very low concentration of O3, bubbled into the water for 45 minutes per day...The effect was claimed to be surprisingly good and more and more people are switching to it!! It's of course true that O3 is toxic to us as well as the fish... but the supporters of this method said that a low concentration was NOT going to bring us and the fish any real threats... so, what do you think about their propositions?

Moreover, O3 will also oxidize NO2 to NO3... which is another benefit
to the aquarium. Some people said that the use of O3 was also widely-adopted by marine-tank keepers...

no personal experience

ozone is a powerful oxidizing agent due to it's chemical structure

oxidation is a damaging process to most living tissue, by this fact it is very useful as a disinfectant and is also toxic to fish
i believe when it is used it is to clear free living organisms from the water column and then must be removed before the water is recirculated to the tanks

it is not suitable for treatment of sick fish

have i missed your question?
andrew

 

[Mike Wise]

I have to agree with Andrew. O3 works can only on organisms in the water collumn. It has no effect on internal bacteria & parasites.

I have a background in hazardous material management & environmental remediation. This includes water purification practices. O3 that is simply bubbled into water dissociates very quickly forming extra O2 before it gets much of a chance to oxidize organics. This is why it is only effective when generated in the immediate vicinity of a small volume of water (measured in ml). Only in this type of system is there sufficient O3 in contact with organics for a sufficiently long time to be effective. I think that the proponents of bubbling O3 would find bubbling O2 equally effective, because they are only increasing the oxygen content in the aquarium - and only for the time that extra oxygen is add.

 

[fishgeek]

marine tanks do use ozone for water borne things , excess is then skimmed in a protein skimmer to stop return to the tanks (or removed with carbon filtration)

ozone is toxic to fish at very low levels 0.002mg/l are the suggested maximums for residual tank levels when using ozone for sterilisation/disinfection

ozone is also likely to oxidise your biological filter bacteria if used as is being suggested
all this to me suggests that mike is right about the bubbles of ozone really being bubbles of oxygen


andrew

 

[blueblue]

Thanks Mike and Andrew. I agree to the points you make while I am puzzled by all the claims here among many apistos experts in Hong Kong... many of them moved from using traditional medication to the use of O3... they claim that O3 can heal and prevent the most troublesome diseases, such as FishMB, hole-in-the-head, and dropsy, from occuring. I myself have never tried this method as i am concerned with the safety issue with the use of O3...

As far as i know, they would bubbled O3, with the air-pump, into the tank with a certain concentration which does not kill fish, but kill many smaller and weaker organisms in water. For example, for a 34 liter tank, they use "170mg"
(the maximum output of that machine is 500mg) and bubble for about half an hour to 45 minutes. After that, the process stops. This process will run twice a day. The users claim that with this approach, an apisto infected with hole-in-the-head kind of disease will recover in a week without additional treatment!! It is just like a miracle!! The claims made by these guys are trustworthy as they are all true-breeders and collectors of apisto in Hong Kong, i know some of them in person and and there is no point for them to tell lies in the open forums in Hong Kong...

So, i am just thinking of whether there is really something to do with
the power of killing organisms with O3, and the importance of
increasing oxygen concentration for treating fish...

 

[Mike Wise]

I think what is actually healing these fish is that the extra O2 is oxidizing dissloved polutants in the aquarium, leading to a healthier tank. Better tank maintenance will do the same thing and do it cheaper. O3 cannot exist in water for more than a few seconds before it dissociates to form O2.

 

[blueblue]

Thanks Mike for your comments again. Yes, i think this point with Oxygen is definitely crucial... ^.^

BTW, the machine for creating ozone is available with a low price here in HK, a machine (which only needs electrical supply) only costs HK$280 = US$36...
Since no extra parts (except an air pump that we all currently use) are needed, more and more people are interested in this machine for treating fish... for me, i am still concerned with the toxic nature of ozone... for the health of my family, i probably will not adopt it at the time being. ^.^

I think what is actually healing these fish is that the extra O2 is oxidizing dissloved polutants in the aquarium, leading to a healthier tank. Better tank maintenance will do the same thing and do it cheaper. O3 cannot exist in water for more than a few seconds before it dissociates to form O2.

 

[fishgeek]

just out of interest blue can you smell anything when one of these devices is turned on
ozone has a distinct smell(think storm brewing)
they used to say that if you could smell it then it was damaging and once you couldn't smell it it was dangerous - the ozone should be able to damage the sensory cells of the nose and once you cant smell and avoid it increased risk of serious exposure

perhaps the small machines dont generate enough ozone to actually do much at all
also ozone will degrade plastic very quickly through what material are these ozone gas's being pumped? if plastic airline it should go stiff and rittle relatively quickly if ozone is actually present

a few links that may interest you epa web site

 

[blueblue]

Thanks fishgeek for the information. I haven't used it myself and so i am not sure if the users will smell anything or not. It is known that when using the ozone machine, the users are recommended to open the windows and allow enough fresh air to come in... i have paid special attention to your remarks saying that plastic would get stiff after contacting Ozone for long... i probably would post a message to ask those guys and see if it is the case because they are definitely using the classic plastic airline... Thanks again.

just out of interest blue can you smell anything when one of these devices is turned on
ozone has a distinct smell(think storm brewing)
they used to say that if you could smell it then it was damaging and once you couldn't smell it it was dangerous - the ozone should be able to damage the sensory cells of the nose and once you cant smell and avoid it increased risk of serious exposure

perhaps the small machines dont generate enough ozone to actually do much at all
also ozone will degrade plastic very quickly through what material are these ozone gas's being pumped? if plastic airline it should go stiff and rittle relatively quickly if ozone is actually present

a few links that may interest you epa web site

 

[Mike Wise]

blueblue,

Do these ozone generators use a fluorescent-like tube to generate ozone? The aquarium ozone generators in the US do. These tubes wear out quickly & should be replaced every 3-6 months to remain effective.

 

[blueblue]

blueblue,

Do these ozone generators use a fluorescent-like tube to generate ozone? The aquarium ozone generators in the US do. These tubes wear out quickly & should be replaced every 3-6 months to remain effective.

Hi Mike, hmmm, what i learn from the vendor here is that, the machine uses high voltage to create Ozone... Please take a look at the appearance of the product:

(photo from aqua-creatures.com)

 

[Mike Wise]

Wow! It looks like it uses an electric arc to produce O3. This could be dangerous if someone without experience were to open the generator.

 

[blueblue]

Wow! It looks like it uses an electric arc to produce O3. This could be dangerous if someone without experience were to open the generator.

i think so, too... it's also why i still hesitate to use it despite its low price and mysterious functions ^.^

 

[fishgeek]

how do the uv one's create ozone?
i was only aware of an electrical charge leading to the ozone production personally

i'm sure health and safety and liabilty and all those modern 'it's somebody else's fault ' things mean that a warning saying case can only be open by qualifed technician is not enough to protect a producer from foolish consumers

 

[Mike Wise]

The tubes produce high energy UV radiation that breaks O2 bonds. The free O radicals bond with O2 (in air) to produce Ozone. The same thing happens in the upper atmosphere where the O radicals now bond with chloroflorocarbons, reducing the ozone layer.

 

[blueblue]

The tubes produce high energy UV radiation that breaks O2 bonds. The free O radicals bond with O2 (in air) to produce Ozone. The same thing happens in the upper atmosphere where the O radicals now bond with chloroflorocarbons, reducing the ozone layer.

Then that UV source must be very powerful (and hence dangerous as it's
a form of wave, too)... i think ...

 

[fishgeek]

why not just use the uv then as the steriliser? or can you use less uv to produce the oxygen free radicals and have a better steriliser because more reactive molecule cause's mmore damage?

andrew

 

[blueblue]

why not just use the uv then as the steriliser? or can you use less uv to produce the oxygen free radicals and have a better steriliser because more reactive molecule cause's mmore damage?

andrew

Hi andrew. People here in HK also use uv as steriliser, but the
performance is reported to be much much worse than ozone...
moreover, the magical functions of ozone do not show up when we use
uv steriliser...

 

[Mike Wise]

Water absorbs UV radiation so quickly that it really isn't effective after it pass through a couple of centimeters of water. This is why UV sterilizers run water through a narrow passages in the system.