Tucanoichthys tucano viable option as tankmate for Apistogramma D12?

[Phil_1983]

Hello everyone,
now that my first aquarium is up and running and already stocked, and I have separated the two bitaeniata — the smaller one is currently on its own in a 60 cm tank — I have managed to get another aquarium. This one has a footprint of 120 cm x 40 cm.


In a few weeks, I may be able to get some young Apistogramma D12. Now I am wondering about additional stocking for this tank. While looking into options, I came across the tetra mentioned above, Tucanoichthys tucano, which I like a lot and which also seems to be a very good match in terms of water parameters.


My only concern is their very small maximum size. Does anyone here have experience with whether Apistogramma will readily prey on such tiny tank mates?

 

[MacZ]

I'd be weary. D12 are from the macmasteri/hoignei groups, and those grow quite big. Especially smaller T. tucano would easily fit in their mouths. And that might end expensive considering they still cost significantly more than 5€ a piece.

On the positive side: They can be kept in the same water parameters. (lower end of pH and conductivity)

Does anyone here have experience with whether Apistogramma will readily prey on such tiny tank mates?

We just talked about this in another thread the past days. As @Mike Wise phrased it: If it fits in the mouth it will be eaten. On the other hand I agree with him that fish in the upper ranges of the tank are generally ignored and I consider Tucanos rather top-oriented, but not surfacedwellers.

 

[Phil_1983]

I'd be weary. D12 are from the macmasteri/hoignei groups, and those grow quite big. Especially smaller T. tucano would easily fit in their mouths. And that might end expensive considering they still cost significantly more than 5€ a piece.

On the positive side: They can be kept in the same water parameters. (lower end of pH and conductivity)

Okay, so I have to look further into possible tankmates. Thanks Mac.

I was asking because it is really hard to find infos on the average TL size of an average adult (male) fish. I found some Infos, implying 7cm max TL.
I was aware that they are macmasteri group. In fact, that is what made me ask here. You know - better safe than sorry.

We just talked about this in another thread the past days. As @Mike Wise phrased it: If it fits in the mouth it will be eaten. On the other hand I agree with him that fish in the upper ranges of the tank are generally ignored and I consider Tucanos rather top-oriented, but not surfacedwellers.

Oh, I guess I missed that one. Makes sense.

 

[anewbie]

I have a bunch of tl they are small streamline but they hang mid-level to upper mid-level in my 18 inch tall aquarium. I suppose of the macs swim near the top they would be fair game I know my nijjensi have no problem using the aquarium full height as do several species i own but most of them have smaller mouths than macs.

My ortegai never bthered going near the top and mostly hung lower mid-level to bottom. When i think about it they were probably the only specie i own that never bothered to leave the lower quardrant of the aquarium though the winkefleck spent more time in the lower potions than the upper portion.

The tucano are nice fishes - can't say they are nicer than then the Paracheirodon axelrodi or morse code tetra but they are a little more unique. I'm a fan of the smaller tetra and when i picked up some blue-berry they looked like a huge monster compared to the sub 1 inch tetra i usually buy.

One nice tetra i found that doesn't seem to go after fry are the common keri tetra which kind of surprise me but my nijjensi had no problems raising frys with them (i wasn't really trying to breed the nijjensi and given how yuong they were it was a bit of a surprise). The wild caught ones are a bit more tame then the super blue that are commonly sold as domestic (as to which is better - well that is a matter of point of view) but they are larger - perhaps a bit larger than cardinals.

 

[Phil_1983]

Thanks so much for such a detailed answer. I guess that, even though I really like the tucanos and have never kept them before, I will go with an alternative. I think Paracheirodon simulans would look nice in that dark water, or perhaps even Nannostomus eques and/or a small group of Nannostomus rubrocaudatus. I will also try to find some of the mentioned blue-berry tetra and see them in real life. From the pictures I really like them, but I cant remember to have ever seen them at my LFS.

The risk is simply too high for me to lose them. It is not only about the high cost of these fish, but also about the lives of those little fellows. In the end, we all want the fish in our tanks to be kept as well as possible.

 

[anewbie]

Thanks so much for such a detailed answer. I guess that, even though I really like the tucanos and have never kept them before, I will go with an alternative. I think Paracheirodon simulans would look nice in that dark water, or perhaps even Nannostomus eques and/or a small group of Nannostomus rubrocaudatus. I will also try to find some of the mentioned blue-berry tetra and see them in real life. From the pictures I really like them, but I cant remember to have ever seen them at my LFS.

The risk is simply too high for me to lose them. It is not only about the high cost of these fish, but also about the lives of those little fellows. In the end, we all want the fish in our tanks to be kept as well as possible.

So the thing to consider is if you are going to breed because some of these tetra are pretty good at hunting frys.

Story on my group of p. simulans. I wanted 10 so i purchased 10 but after 2 days they all vanished - every last one - so i figured a bad batch so i got 5 more - and over the course of a year i did this several more times. So now a year later i gave up on them and i was checking something out and shined a flashlight and noticed one was still alive but hiding - then i saw two - and then a bit more and removed the backing from the tank to make it more difficult for them to hide (can see through the tank on both sides and i discovered nearly all of the ones i had purchased the past year+ had lived (and i had a lot). Mind you i had looked in the aquarium frequently during that year with a flash light but those bloody pia had hidden so well every last one was invisible. Sigh.

Conversely they are quite small when purchased but given a year to grow in peace they get quite large - definitely larger than the tucano and morse code tetras i like a lot - in fact i would hazard they are only a little smaller than neon tetra - though it is hard to say since they are the largest thing in the 20 long.
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As for pencil fishes - margitaus are pretty darn nice - and i like marilyn a lot but they might be too small for macs. I have a thread some where - i think here that shows some pictures of various tetra/pencil fishes:

Interesting little tetra (Trochilocharax ornatus)

I picked up a small group of these about a month ago and another group today. They are stated to be a little smaller than morse code tetra and similar price point - they might be a lot smaller i'm not sure as the ones i received are marginally larger than a month old guppy fry. I'll post a...

apistogramma.com

(it isn't that great so worth skipping - it has t. ornatus (smaller than tucano); morse code, tucano, margs. not much - doesn't ahve the axekridua riesei which is another tiny tetra i like a lot.

If your tank is large and you can find the red variety of n. unifasciatus they are pretty nice.

 

[Phil_1983]

Yes, I was considering breeding these fish, since they are pretty rare, but I would not do that in the display tank. I have another 60l tank in mind for having them breed, and then take the male out to the display. If I even get a pair.

Regarding the p. simulans: Do you know if this shyness/hiding is their general behaviour? Would be kind of a dealbreaker for me, to be honest, even though I love how they look.

Unfortunately, neon tetras are no option, since the temperature in the summer will rise to about 27/28°C in my flat.

I do absolutely agree on the marginatus. I have 25 of them with the bitaeniata in the other tank which is the reason not to get them for my other tank. I will look into the red variety of the unifasciatus though. The marylins... Would be interesting, but I have never seen them in Germany.

Also I will have a look at your thread!

BTW - Do you have experience with hyphessobrycon elachys? I just saw them last saturday at my LFS and thought they are nice fish too. And they are supposed to stay pretty small.

 

[anewbie]

BTW - Do you have experience with hyphessobrycon elachys? I just saw them last saturday at my LFS and thought they are nice fish too. And they are supposed to stay pretty small.

I have something similar - Hyphessobrycon negodagua though i have no clue if the behavior is the same. These are closer to schooling then the other tetras I've mentioned and in the darker tank they are rather stunning and enjoyable to watch - as they have a bit of a funky swimming style. Unfortunately i suspect they are not good with breeding dwarf cichild but don't know for sure as i have them with my a. ladisalo which ahve never attempted to breed (to my knowledge). They are also in a larger aquarium - 40B. Not sure i woudl put them in a 29 as i prefer the smaller dithers in smaller aquariums - my pick being morse code tetra, tucano, n. marilyn and similar. I don't even like the larger pencil fishes in 29s these days. Oh well not sure that helps much.
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As for the p. simulans - i can't really answer that - the ones i have in a 20 long with some pymgy cory were extremely shy even though the school size is quite large - now that they can't fully hide they still avoid me as much as possible - but i can't say if they would be better behaved in a different environment. What i can say is the tank is extremely dark as it has a very dense of mat of frogbit at the top - here is a picture of it:


If possible in a better lit aquarium or one with less hiding places they would be more open - sort of a case of them taking the opportunity because it exists. Conversely i've been told ruby tetra always hide by another person who kept them and mine never hid (though i suspect a couple of the smaller ones became snacks; they arrived quite small - a case of a small tetra being smaller). At least they are cheap (Axelrodia riesei).

Even in this picture with 20+ 2 year old green neon tetra you are hard press to find them.


These became available in the states last year and i picked up a bunch at a discount - well recommended if you can find them - surprise asia or cz hasn't started to mass breed them:

 

[Phil_1983]

I have something similar - Hyphessobrycon negodagua though i have no clue if the behavior is the same. These are closer to schooling then the other tetras I've mentioned and in the darker tank they are rather stunning and enjoyable to watch - as they have a bit of a funky swimming style. Unfortunately i suspect they are not good with breeding dwarf cichild but don't know for sure as i have them with my a. ladisalo which ahve never attempted to breed (to my knowledge). They are also in a larger aquarium - 40B. Not sure i woudl put them in a 29 as i prefer the smaller dithers in smaller aquariums - my pick being morse code tetra, tucano, n. marilyn and similar. I don't even like the larger pencil fishes in 29s these days. Oh well not sure that helps much.
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Okay, I will check these out.

My tank, where I inted putting them in is 240 litres, so roundabout 63 us gallons. Anyways, I like the idea of "small fish in a (relatively) big aquarium", so therefore I am mostly looking for the so called nano-fish.

As for the p. simulans - i can't really answer that - the ones i have in a 20 long with some pymgy cory were extremely shy even though the school size is quite large - now that they can't fully hide they still avoid me as much as possible - but i can't say if they would be better behaved in a different environment. What i can say is the tank is extremely dark as it has a very dense of mat of frogbit at the top - here is a picture of it:


If possible in a better lit aquarium or one with less hiding places they would be more open - sort of a case of them taking the opportunity because it exists. Conversely i've been told ruby tetra always hide by another person who kept them and mine never hid (though i suspect a couple of the smaller ones became snacks; they arrived quite small - a case of a small tetra being smaller). At least they are cheap (Axelrodia riesei).

Well, it depends a bit on the individual fish, I guess. Good is, I have some time to decide. But if p. simulans are shy... I don't know.

These became available in the states last year and i picked up a bunch at a discount - well recommended if you can find them - surprise asia or cz hasn't started to mass breed them:

They do seem quite nice. I will try to get them.

 

[illumnae]

I once had tucano tetras as dithers in a tank with an Ivanacara adoketa pair. Pretty soon after the tank was set up I had to look for new, larger dithers. The tank had hardscape and plant cover so not all the tucanos were eaten, but the remaining ones were hiding 100% of the time, so it was as good as not having any.

I also had tucanos as dithers with a young Apistogramma elizabethae pair, and those were fine (and in fact outlived the apistogramma).

Of course, adoketa are much larger than most apistogramma, but my pair were not full sized (pretty young wild caught pair) and while they do have big mouths I have seen apistogramma that have mouths equally large.

In terms of "fry safe" tetras, I've personally witnessed even young ember tetras (smaller than 2cm) successfully hunt my Apistogramma bitaeniata fry. They hunted like a wolf pack, with a few distracting the guarding mother from the front and the rest snatching fry from behind her. Cardinal tetras and green neon tetras didn't even need such behaviour - they just snatched what they could.

I agree with Mike's statement that fish will eat whatever other fish that fits in their mouth.

 

[anewbie]

I once had tucano tetras as dithers in a tank with an Ivanacara adoketa pair. Pretty soon after the tank was set up I had to look for new, larger dithers. The tank had hardscape and plant cover so not all the tucanos were eaten, but the remaining ones were hiding 100% of the time, so it was as good as not having any.

I also had tucanos as dithers with a young Apistogramma elizabethae pair, and those were fine (and in fact outlived the apistogramma).

Of course, adoketa are much larger than most apistogramma, but my pair were not full sized (pretty young wild caught pair) and while they do have big mouths I have seen apistogramma that have mouths equally large.

In terms of "fry safe" tetras, I've personally witnessed even young ember tetras (smaller than 2cm) successfully hunt my Apistogramma bitaeniata fry. They hunted like a wolf pack, with a few distracting the guarding mother from the front and the rest snatching fry from behind her. Cardinal tetras and green neon tetras didn't even need such behaviour - they just snatched what they could.

I agree with Mike's statement that fish will eat whatever other fish that fits in their mouth.

It is an interesting thing about fishes - i picked up some not too large Krobia xinguensis and qt them in a 120 with intention to moving them to my 600; but i had a small group of 8 cardinals in there - in less than an hour after getting the krobia i discovered they are all mouth and only had 2 1/2 cardinals left (the 1/2 really wasn't much good); i rescued the remaining cardinals and decided these krobia were not going to be good tank mates in the 600 so now 2 years later they still sit in the 120 (though if nothing else they breed like bunny rabbits).

Conversely my chocolate cichild have giant mouths at 10 inches but at least so far they have left my school of 40 serpae tetra alone so one never really knows...

 

[Phil_1983]

I once had tucano tetras as dithers in a tank with an Ivanacara adoketa pair. Pretty soon after the tank was set up I had to look for new, larger dithers. The tank had hardscape and plant cover so not all the tucanos were eaten, but the remaining ones were hiding 100% of the time, so it was as good as not having any.

I also had tucanos as dithers with a young Apistogramma elizabethae pair, and those were fine (and in fact outlived the apistogramma).

Of course, adoketa are much larger than most apistogramma, but my pair were not full sized (pretty young wild caught pair) and while they do have big mouths I have seen apistogramma that have mouths equally large.

In terms of "fry safe" tetras, I've personally witnessed even young ember tetras (smaller than 2cm) successfully hunt my Apistogramma bitaeniata fry. They hunted like a wolf pack, with a few distracting the guarding mother from the front and the rest snatching fry from behind her. Cardinal tetras and green neon tetras didn't even need such behaviour - they just snatched what they could.

I agree with Mike's statement that fish will eat whatever other fish that fits in their mouth.

Thank you so much for this information. I guess the tucano tetra won't be the tetra in my tank