New Apistogramma keeper!

[Kaanie]

Hi I’m Kaan,

Have been aquascaping for a few years now and recently started with my first pair of Apistogramma Ortegai (wild caught)

I guess they are enjoying themselves in the scape and are raising the second spawn as I post.

The tank is an ILA 65x50x40 cm / 25x19x15 Inch approximately 148L / 39 Gallons

It’s a nice community tank with a school of Ruby tetras, green neon tetras (paracheirodon simulans) ottos and couple of red racer snails (Vittina waigiensis). I’m waiting to get the bottom crew that will be a small group of corydora habrosus or hastatus.

It has a biomaster 600 stocked packed with biohome ultimate (like 3KG) lid by a WRGB Pro 2 light and CO2 gas injection and dosing ATP and Excel they love the dr Bassleer dry food in the morning and frozen foods for dinner.

Had to struggle to get the tank balanced as it was the first time I used such a strong light but finally moving towards a nice healthy almost algae free tank!

*I cleaned the lily pipes and tubes yesterday *

 

[Frank Hättich]

Your fish are not A. ortegai. My guess is that it's A. sp. Nanay (or something closely related).

 

[Kaanie]

Your fish are not A. ortegai. My guess is that it's A. sp. Nanay (or something closely related)

The male looks exactly like this?

Selling - A. Ortegai wild caught pair and 10ish offspring Texas

I have a breeding pair of wild caught ortegai im looking to sell. I also have around 10 of their offspring 2 of which are a successful breeding pair. Located in Texas and willing to ship.

www.apistogramma.com

 

[MacZ]

Frank, the fish above lack the slightly lyre/trapezoid tail of A. sp. Nanay, having a rounded caudal instead.
But I would also not say A. (cf.) ortegai. Cruzi/Eunotus-Complex for sure, but neither A. sp. Nanay nor A. cf. ortegai.
I lack the experience to say what they are, but I definitely can tell what they are not.

The tank is not what I would call species-appropriate but as a biotope aquarist the whole "scaping, CO2, always clean, no algae"-thing just makes me cringe anyway. I find the tank especially overstocked.

I’m waiting to get the bottom crew that will be a small group of corydora habrosus or hastatus.

Leave it. The tank is too small for the combination of Apistogramma and Corydoras. Also the small species will be especially easy pickings for the Apistos.
Read about Catfish problems here:

Catfish in Apisto Tanks

What are good choices of catfish for an Apisto tank? I was thinking more along the lines of an algae eater or something to clean up uneaten food. Most Cories seem too large or meddlesome.

apistogramma.com

 

[Frank Hättich]

@Kaanie can you please show some more photos of your fish (male & female), if possible in different moods?

 

[MacZ]

@Kaanie can you please show some more photos of your fish (male & female), if possible in different moods?

Good call!

 

[Mike Wise]

The 2nd photo shows a definite split in Bar 6, diagnostic for eunotus-subcomplex species. In addition, the female does not exhibit the "∞" double caudal patch diagnostic for A. ortegai. So it definitely is not A. ortegai. It appears to be one of the many forms/species of A. cf. eunotus, probably Orangeflossen/Orange-fin.

 

[Frank Hättich]

The 2nd photo shows a definite split in Bar 6, diagnostic for eunotus-subcomplex species.

Sure but A. sp. Nanay (or better: the group of forms we label as such) can show such a split too, that's why I would like to see more photos of these fish.

 

[Mike Wise]

The male's dorsal is much higher and more serrated than on cruzi-complex species unless very old, as in your photo - and I'm not even certain that this fish is the original Nanay form which had a lower and more even dorsal.

 

[MacZ]

I'm not even certain that this fish is the original Nanay form which had a lower and more even dorsal.

Looking for comparison material besides Tom's site you will find quite a range of superficially similar but in detail highly diverging specimens on the net. To be honest... I'm kinda lost by now and have no idea which is the original now.

 

[Frank Hättich]

I'm not even certain that this fish is the original Nanay form which had a lower and more even dorsal.

Looking for comparison material besides Tom's site you will find quite a range of superficially similar but in detail highly diverging specimens on the net.

That's why I said "A. sp. Nanay (or better: the group of forms we label as such)"

 

[MacZ]

That's why I said "A. sp. Nanay (or better: the group of forms we label as such)"

Hindsight und so...

 

[Kaanie]

@Kaanie can you please show some more photos of your fish (male & female), if possible in different moods?

Hi Frank, I’m away for the weekend but will do my best to get some good picture when I’m back on Monday.

 

[Kaanie]

Frank, the fish above lack the slightly lyre/trapezoid tail of A. sp. Nanay, having a rounded caudal instead.
But I would also not say A. (cf.) ortegai. Cruzi/Eunotus-Complex for sure, but neither A. sp. Nanay nor A. cf. ortegai.
I lack the experience to say what they are, but I definitely can tell what they are not.

The tank is not what I would call species-appropriate but as a biotope aquarist the whole "scaping, CO2, always clean, no algae"-thing just makes me cringe anyway. I find the tank especially overstocked.


Leave it. The tank is too small for the combination of Apistogramma and Corydoras. Also the small species will be especially easy pickings for the Apistos.
Read about Catfish problems here:

Catfish in Apisto Tanks

What are good choices of catfish for an Apisto tank? I was thinking more along the lines of an algae eater or something to clean up uneaten food. Most Cories seem too large or meddlesome.

apistogramma.com

Frank, the fish above lack the slightly lyre/trapezoid tail of A. sp. Nanay, having a rounded caudal instead.
But I would also not say A. (cf.) ortegai. Cruzi/Eunotus-Complex for sure, but neither A. sp. Nanay nor A. cf. ortegai.
I lack the experience to say what they are, but I definitely can tell what they are not.

The tank is not what I would call species-appropriate but as a biotope aquarist the whole "scaping, CO2, always clean, no algae"-thing just makes me cringe anyway. I find the tank especially overstocked.


Leave it. The tank is too small for the combination of Apistogramma and Corydoras. Also the small species will be especially easy pickings for the Apistos.
Read about Catfish problems here:

Catfish in Apisto Tanks

What are good choices of catfish for an Apisto tank? I was thinking more along the lines of an algae eater or something to clean up uneaten food. Most Cories seem too large or meddlesome.

apistogramma.com

Well we all have our preferences and the best we can do is respect each one another’s likings. I’m not a fan of biotope purist because you’ll be surprised to what you will find in the wild. Unless you also ad your dose of plastic and construction leftovers in your Amazon biotipes. I don’t mind a bit of algae at all. Blue green algae on the other hand is a big no for me and the tank was over running. The tank has a lot of hiding places packed with plants and I even build caves for the Apistogramma I which they are happily spawning. The water quality is top notch thanks to the filtration and regular maintenance. I don’t remove any algae or biofilm from the plants or hardscape and there is zero aggression in the aquarium. Certainly the female protects the fry and the otos are warned when they get to close but if had the male sifting trough the soil with the oto on a leaf on top of him. The tetras are swimming with him to catch the food he floats up when he’s scavenging that looks so amazing like watching a shark with remora . I used aqadvisor to be sure I don’t overstock and trust me with the filtration I have I’m not near overstocking. I want the Cory’s because I really like the species and I’m pretty sure I can make it work. I even have neocaridina shrimp in there that serve as the occasional life food but they are able to survive in there. It all keeps them busy and happy. I’ll post a video as soon as I get the chance. All in all the apisto’s would not spawn if they didn’t feel comfortable and the environment didn’t meet there expectations so aquascape or biotope it all comes down how good you did to make the fish happy.

 

[MacZ]

I’m not a fan of biotope purist because you’ll be surprised to what you will find in the wild. Unless you also ad your dose of plastic and construction leftovers in your Amazon biotipes.

I should actually stop anwering after that remark which simply completely misses the point of it all.

I used aqadvisor to be sure I don’t overstock and trust me with the filtration I have I’m not near overstocking.

Overstocking is not just bioload as that horrible site makes people think. Space requirements, preferred swimming patterns and areas, requirements for territory (yes, also for for tetras, they do have that) and appropriate structure also determine whether a tank is overstocked.

Otherwise... nevermind. I doubt it's worth trying. I mean that in the nicest way possible. Good luck.

 

[Mike Wise]

I'm kinda lost by now and have no idea which is the original now.

This is a photo of a male from Julio Melgar's 2nd import - gotten from Julio:

 

[MacZ]

Thanks Mike.

 

[Andrew H]

I should actually stop anwering after that remark which simply completely misses the point of it all.

Overstocking is not just bioload as that horrible site makes people think. Space requirements, preferred swimming patterns and areas, requirements for territory (yes, also for for tetras, they do have that) and appropriate structure also determine whether a tank is overstocked.

Otherwise... nevermind. I doubt it's worth trying. I mean that in the nicest way possible. Good luck.

I’d like to say the tank looks beautiful and clearly the well being of the livestock is a high priority. Great to provide advice and guidance but this isn’t a “how many GLO(TM)-Apistos can I put into my 7 gallon brackish goldfish tank” post. Anyways, not trying to stir the pot, and I’ve gotten tons of great advice on this forum (especially from Mac), but evangelism requires patience.

 

[Kaanie]

This is the best I could do, hope some of them are helpful. I actually came across the forum while looking up more information after they spawned. Knowing the exact species will definitely help in providing them an even better environment! I observed the tank for a long time and I think the Otocinclus would be most bothered by the Cory’s so the tank is good as it is! Well at-least stock wise definitely more plants!

 

[Kaanie]

I’d like to say the tank looks beautiful and clearly the well being of the livestock is a high priority. Great to provide advice and guidance but this isn’t a “how many GLO(TM)-Apistos can I put into my 7 gallon brackish goldfish tank” post. Anyways, not trying to stir the pot, and I’ve gotten tons of great advice on this forum (especially from Mac), but evangelism requires patience.

Thanks Andrew, much appreciated. The response from Mac felt a bit harsh and unwelcome and I understand the forum would be more focused on true biotopes but like a mentioned I love to create a different type of under water art. Really did my best to get the best of both worlds. I run the lights as low as possible and moved it all the way to the back so it’s focused on the stems. Planted low light slow growers at the front so they would feel comfortable and have tons of places to retract to if they get spooked or stressed in any way. As soon as the Pinnatifida starts to grow they’ll even have more shade and cover.