Multiple males

[raymond82]

Hi,

I was browsing around on Apistodave's website and read that the natural behavior of apistogramma's becomes more apparent when they're with more of them in a tank.

All my apisto's are with pairs or trios in separate tanks now but I would love to have a bigger aquarium with multiple generations swimming around. Some territorial behavior would also be nice to see, although there should be space enough for all males to be happy.

That made me wonder, how big would a tank have to be to allow multiple males (let's say 2) to have a territory and provide enough space for the fish to breed (i.e. for fry to survive)?

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree, apistos act more naturally (as in the wild) when interacting with other apistos. Most people keep apistos in pairs/trios because we are interested in getting a good number of fry from our fish. In the wild, and community settings, fry survival is much lower. You probably could get good fry production and interesting interaction between adults (depending on the species) by having 3 males and 9 females in a suitably decorated 125 gallon 6 foot long tank.

 

[aarhud]

I started with 5 males and 10 females in a 72x18x16 (a short 125g basically) tank. The interactions were great, but eventually I ended up with two males and a sneaker male. The females all spawned and it was a joy to watch. The setup was not really peaceful though, females would chase each other off and take fry and the smaller females had a tough go at it.

I could have made the environment more complex and I'm sure things would have ran a lot smoother, but the main goal was to be able to observe the fish. I broke the tank down when I had to downsize so I no longer have the setup, but it will be a tank I will try again in the future. I would recommend it to anybody. Much much much more interesting than the lunkers people usually fill a large tank with.

Hope that helps,
Aaron

 

[raymond82]

Thanks for your replies Mike and Aaron!

A 125 gallon tank is a bit beyond what I could have, I was hoping my 31 gallon would be big enough but I guess I was too optimistic... However, based on what you say it does sound very appealing, I will definitely keep it in mind for the future.

If I would drop the requirement of having good fry survival, would it be possible in a smaller tank (e.g. with 2 males and 4 females)? Or is there also a minimal requirement for the amount of adults to see the more natural behavior? It could be an option to have a dedicated breeding tank and a "behavior observation" tank.

 

[Mike Wise]

IMHO, having fewer than 3 males and 6 females in a tank of suitable size and structure will not provide what you want. Sadly, your 31 is just too small for this. I always recommend about 1 sq. ft. of bottom area for each fish. This can be increased or reduced somewhat depending on the species an dcomplexity of the decor.

 

[raymond82]

Shame my 31 gallon is too small. Maybe one day I'll find the space to setup a 125 gallon, for now I'll just enjoy them as they are!

 

[Jacco]

Hi mike,
Which apisto's would be suitable for this set up.
I have a 700 liter tank and would like the 3-4 males with some females. But havent found much/any information on wich apisto's would feel happy in such a group.
Thx!

 

[Jacco]

Or of course if any one else has suggestions i am also iterested!

 

[Mike Wise]

Jacco, you don't provide enough information. It all depends on what you want. In a community tank, there is no reason to add the more plain females unless you want to see behavior than can range from interesting to brutal. A lot depends on the decor of the aquarium. For a breeding tank, I suggest 2 males and 5-6 females, all of the same species + some pencilfish or other non-fry predators. So, exactly what do you want?

 

[Jacco]

Hi Mike,
I have a blackwater 'community' setup. (700 liter amazone in the biotope section here http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/700-liter-amazone.13197/)
It is not a breedingtank but some occasional fry would be nice. My experience so far with eg dic. Maculatus and a. Panduro is that with two males there is one alfa male (claiming all)and one hiding male. I would like to have a couple of males and females to see the "tipcal" behavior of all having territoia etc. I don't know if this is possible. Perhaps I should just settle for two couples/harems of different dwarfs.
And i thought a monogame apisto would perhaps setttle for less territorium than an harem.
Thx!

 

[Mike Wise]

A 1+ meter long tank should be able to have 2 males with their own territories. If 1 male claims the entire tank, it usually is an indication that the tank is not properly designed with visible territorial boundaries and many hiding places. Of course, each female will need similar territories, too.

 

[aarhud]

The females were easiest to satisfy in my tank. I gave them each a 8"x8" square and made line of sight barriers all around it. I used 4" long 1/2" pvc pieces and pushed them into the sand for caves. The females loved them, and it allowed me to angle the opening of the "cave" away from closer territories.

The males are a little trickier IME, since they would cross line of sight barriers and challenge another male. Eventually I ended up with two males, but they showed odd behavior. Fed together, swam around each other, ect, but without much posturing or displays of dominance. I never could tell who was actually breeding all of the females, because neither male had clear long term territories. These were full grown males, so I had no doubts they were truly males. So I am not sure if I succeeded with two males, or I simply got lucky and they tolerated each other. The other males were picked off quickly, I went from 5 to 2 in a matter of weeks.

When I try it again (As soon as I get a fish room), I'm only going to do two males and try for 6 females. The behavior between females is the most interesting.

 

[Jacco]

Thx for the answers. I was wondering though wich apisto would be more/most suitable for a setup with multiple males. I read for instance that papagai are quite agrssive,and i guess they would be less suitable for this setup then some others.

 

[aarhud]

Mike can help you with species more than I could.

Cacatuoides is a good one though.

 

[Jacco]

I'm thinking adding 3 male and 5 female bitaeniata's (according to tom c's site multiple males in a 160l is doable)
Anyone other experience's, is this war on forehand? Or a possibility to see all the complex behaviour?

 

[Cooder]

Beautiful tank, and i think it looks like it could work having at least 2 males in there. I probably wouldnt go three.

Some coverage on the bottom with indian almond leaves or oak leaves would make that tank, and apistos love them!

 

[Jacco]

Hi cooler, thx. The leaves will return when the dwarfs arrive.