How to discourage breeding?

[apinstogram]

Hi all,

I have a male and female Apistogramma cacatuoides. I got them 6 weeks ago and they had fry shortly after. I put the fry in a new tank two weeks ago, then the male started aggressively chasing her around.

Things have changed though as she is now yellow and she spends 90% of her time in a cave (I checked though and there are no eggs in there). She spends the other 10% flaring at the male. I was worried about the male as he is now lethargic/hiding for the last two days since she started this. But he is still eating, even if it's less.

1. Should I be worried about my male?
2. Is there a way to discourage this back and forth breeding behavior, short of separating them to different tanks?

I already am now raising a batch of fry. I have no more space in my apartment for another tank to separate the male and female. Can I change parameters or something to just get them to chill out rather than the male chasing the female or the female protecting a cave? I am worried that one of them will kill the other with this back and forth behavior.

Thank you very much!

 

[MacZ]

1. Should I be worried about my male?

When this keeps going for more than 5 days, yes.

2. Is there a way to discourage this back and forth breeding behavior, short of separating them to different tanks?

Yes, but this would definitely fall into the animal cruelty area, namely providing so poor conditions that they won't get into breeding mode at all.
So, the only crueltyfree way is separation. Or a tank so big the male can't control it all and the female can truely evade and retreat.

I am worried that one of them will kill the other with this back and forth behavior.

That will at one point indirectly happen, as stress is the number one killer of dwarf cichlids. I have only seen one incident of Apistogramma actively killing each other.

You could put the female in the growout, give her away with the fry and keep a community with the single male. Or the other way round, and keep the female.

 

[anewbie]

I will note that the behavior of my a. winkelfleck changed when i moved them from a 29 to a 90; There are two adult females and a male and there was some aggression (though no obvious damage beyond stress in 13 months); when i moved them into the 90 the non breeding female simply moved to the back which is now 20-30 inches away (the aquarium is 48x24 as oppose to the previous 30x12); and the male completely ignores her so instead of hiding at the top of the aquarium in the vals she now rests on the bottom.

Also the young male (f1) also stays a bit back and doesn't have to worry about any aggression. So yea it really works to put them in a larger aquarium; though 'larger' is relative and what is large enough depends on size. I would suspect cockatoo are a bit more aggressive but i'm sure if you make it large enough eventually the issue will be resolved.

 

[apinstogram]

When this keeps going for more than 5 days, yes.


Yes, but this would definitely fall into the animal cruelty area, namely providing so poor conditions that they won't get into breeding mode at all.
So, the only crueltyfree way is separation. Or a tank so big the male can't control it all and the female can truely evade and retreat.

That will at one point indirectly happen, as stress is the number one killer of dwarf cichlids. I have only seen one incident of Apistogramma actively killing each other.

You could put the female in the growout, give her away with the fry and keep a community with the single male. Or the other way round, and keep the female.

Thanks for the detailed answer I really appreciate it. Well I checked this morning and looks like she has a full set of fertilized eggs in her cave. Looks like I have more babies to take care of!

 

[apinstogram]

I will note that the behavior of my a. winkelfleck changed when i moved them from a 29 to a 90; There are two adult females and a male and there was some aggression (though no obvious damage beyond stress in 13 months); when i moved them into the 90 the non breeding female simply moved to the back which is now 20-30 inches away (the aquarium is 48x24 as oppose to the previous 30x12); and the male completely ignores her so instead of hiding at the top of the aquarium in the vals she now rests on the bottom.

Also the young male (f1) also stays a bit back and doesn't have to worry about any aggression. So yea it really works to put them in a larger aquarium; though 'larger' is relative and what is large enough depends on size. I would suspect cockatoo are a bit more aggressive but i'm sure if you make it large enough eventually the issue will be resolved.

Thanks for this. Unfortunately I don't have the space for anything larger than a 29.

 

[MacZ]

Thanks for the detailed answer I really appreciate it. Well I checked this morning and looks like she has a full set of fertilized eggs in her cave. Looks like I have more babies to take care of!

There is no responsibility to raise them. You could just destroy the nest.

 

[apinstogram]

There is no responsibility to raise them. You could just destroy the nest.

This might be the best choice to better care for the fish I already have. But it feels wrong to me to destroy the nest even though I know theres nothing unethical about it. Maybe I just don't separate the fry this time and maybe she eats the fry herself? What do you think?

 

[MacZ]

I know how well these fish can care for their young... There is a chance more survive than you might expect. But you have at least 2 days to decide.

 

[Yoannikko]

Hello,
I can attest to fry surviving in a tank with no particular intervention from my part. I had two spawns from my A. borellii before the male unfortunately passed.
From the first spawn, one fry survived, which I'm planning on keeping.
From the second spawn, 3 fry survived. Still too youngto sex, but I've found a shop in my area that will take them off my hand (along with the female).
Granted, other than a lone H. amandae, there weren't any predators in the tank, but I didn't change my feeding routine either. So if you can't care for the next batch of fry, I would definitely destroy the nest and separate the parents.

 

[apinstogram]

Hello,
I can attest to fry surviving in a tank with no particular intervention from my part. I had two spawns from my A. borellii before the male unfortunately passed.
From the first spawn, one fry survived, which I'm planning on keeping.
From the second spawn, 3 fry survived. Still too youngto sex, but I've found a shop in my area that will take them off my hand (along with the female).
Granted, other than a lone H. amandae, there weren't any predators in the tank, but I didn't change my feeding routine either. So if you can't care for the next batch of fry, I would definitely destroy the nest and separate the parents.

Thanks for the reply. What caused your male to pass? Mine is still hiding/not eating much.

 

[Yoannikko]

Not sure, exactly... Maybe he was stressed out by the female while she was protecting the fry. But in any case, he stayed at the bottom of the tank and had a lot of trouble swimming, so probably a swim bladder issue. I isolated him in a quarantine tank, but he didn't improve, and stopped eating after a while. I ended up euthanizing him, to end his suffering...

 

[apinstogram]

Not sure, exactly... Maybe he was stressed out by the female while she was protecting the fry. But in any case, he stayed at the bottom of the tank and had a lot of trouble swimming, so probably a swim bladder issue. I isolated him in a quarantine tank, but he didn't improve, and stopped eating after a while. I ended up euthanizing him, to end his suffering...

@MacZ

Well, my male has not gotten better, he has gotten worse. He can still swim but barely. He chooses to lie still perched on plants, and when he does swim it's for 10 seconds and he struggles to go where he wants to. He is not eating.

Water parameters/tank is fine. The female and her fry in the same tank are thriving. I'm pretty sure he has a swim bladder issue and I don't know where it came from but it's very disappointing.

I think I have to euthanize him. I have never done this. People recommend clove oil? What do you do to euthanize?

 

[Yoannikko]

Sorry to hear that...

I still believe that the female stressed him out too much. If I ever breed Apistos again, I'll take the male out of the tank when the eggs hatch.

I used the clove oil method, apparently it's the most humane way to euthanize a fish. I mixed 1ml of clove oil with 9 ml of 95% ethanol alcohol. And then mixed 0,2 ml of that solution per 500 ml of tank water (so around 1 ml for 5 liters) and that did the trick. Don't remember how long it took exactly, but it was pretty quick. They say you have to leave the fish in the water for 30 minutes after its gills stop moving.

 

[MacZ]

@MacZ

Well, my male has not gotten better, he has gotten worse. He can still swim but barely. He chooses to lie still perched on plants, and when he does swim it's for 10 seconds and he struggles to go where he wants to. He is not eating.

Water parameters/tank is fine. The female and her fry in the same tank are thriving. I'm pretty sure he has a swim bladder issue and I don't know where it came from but it's very disappointing.

It's not like these fish get an isolated swim bladder issue. Yes, the buoyancy is affected, but it's a generalized thing that affects the whole body. The swimming problems are just one symptome, even if you are not identifying any others.

All we know is the phenomenon is linked to stress levels. Your case is one of the scenarios where it's likely to show up.

Water parameters/tank is fine.

I still have neither seen the tank, nor gotten any numbers. Until then I couldn't tell whether the tank and water are indeed fine. Sorry to be a bit blunt. People come along telling us here and in other forums "Hey my tank is great, water is superb, still my fish are dying like flies." And when you finally get a look and the numbers you are not surprised there are problems. Nothing personal, just something happening all the time.

I think I have to euthanize him. I have never done this. People recommend clove oil? What do you do to euthanize?

Clove oil, just as @Yoannikko described. And yes, I'd put it down at this point, too.
If the fish isn't able to move anymore put him in a closed plastic box (should be dark inside if the lid is on) and put that in the fridge (not freezer!) for 2-3 hours. The fishes metabolism will shut down until it's over in that time.