Lowering alkalinity

[mematrix]

Hi All. I keep quite a few dwarfs I can't seem to get any but My borelliis and rams to spawn. And though the rams I have raised 2 spawns by removing the eggs from parents. I can not get succesful spawns frome the rest. I have fairly soft water around 25-50ppm t gh. But my water is very alkaline around 300ppm+ t kh so my water ph is 8.4. Been using seachem acid buffer to lower the ph but it returns to original readings in 1-2 days. This acid buffer says it conferts alkalinity to CO2. This water chem is darn near a foreign language to me. It really frustrates me that my water won't stay stable or should I say is so stable it won't remain at 6.5 range. As far as I can tell I have no rocks or gravel which leaches into my water. It tests strait out of tap 8.4 ph 300+ppm t alkalinity/buffering cap. 25ppm t hardness 0 ppm nitrite 0 ppm nitrate. have tryied peat in filter combined with drift wood in tank. I used a water softner pillow bt Aquarium pharmaceuticals inc. and seachem acid buffer not at same time. Any sugestions other than buying a RO unit. Sincerely Curtis

 

[tjudy]

Unfortunately I do not know of any product that will actually remove alkalinity. The product you described, as you discovered, does not do the trick... at least not for me or you.

Just to see what happens, try buying several gallons of purified water for water changes. See if that keeps the pH down for you. If it does, then you know that getting one of those machines you do not want me to mention will work for you.

 

[mematrix]

re to tjudy

:biggrin: LoL Thanks TJ. Yea I agree It seems that I will have to get some RO water About 40 gal min and probly 80 and do compleat change over I don't think there is any thing that removes alkalinity once it's in except a RO unit I sure could use the $120 min on more tanks. For right now I guess getting RO water will have to do 1 tank at a time. Thanks again TJ sincerely Curtis :wink:

 

[paul_fox]

My first post, so Hi all

I use Ro water, just bought a RO filter second hand for £25 as my tap water is like liquid rock - I keep Tangs in it. I tried using buffers and couldnt get them stable, RO works well and I use C02 to lower the ph to 6.9 (tap is 8)

Have a look here Im faily sure he ships RO filters to the USA and they are cheap

 

[Mike Wise]

Back in the Dark Ages (1950s-70s) one way to lower the alkalinity (KH) of water was to boil a pot of water, let it cool, & siphon off the top 1/3 of the pot. What happens is that warm water cannot hold as many ions & compounds in solution as cold water, so minerals precipitate out of the boiling water. Before it cools entirely, & the minerals re-dissolve into the water, the 'lighter' less mineralized water is siphoned off the top of the pot. I have never tried this because it takes so much time, energy, wastes water, & besides the alkalinity of my tap water is <2º dKH.

 

[mematrix]

re to Mike and Paul

Back in the Dark Ages (1950s-70s) one way to lower the alkalinity (KH) of water was to boil a pot of water, let it cool, & siphon off the top 1/3 of the pot. What happens is that warm water cannot hold as many ions & compounds in solution as cold water, so minerals precipitate out of the boiling water. Before it cools entirely, & the minerals re-dissolve into the water, the 'lighter' less mineralized water is siphoned off the top of the pot. I have never tried this because it takes so much time, energy, wastes water, & besides the alkalinity of my tap water is <2º dKH.

:wink: Yes I had heard something of that sort Mike I was contimplating doing that jury's still out on that. Most likly I will buy a RO unit. Till then will probly purchase RO water. What is the avg readings on RO Have heard stories of false addvertisement by places selling RO that is not RO? Thanks for link Paul Will Look into it. Sincerely Curtis PS Welcome Paul

 

[tjd]

I used to purchase my water from a water store in a shopping center down my street. The water consistently tests at 6.4 Ph, 1> dGH, 1> dKH. The water costed less then the LFSs and I don't have to worry about them selling "filtered" water as "RO" as I ran into with the LFS. I eventually went with an RO unit as I added tanks.

Tom

 

[mematrix]

Re to Tom

:biggrin: Thanks Tom. I have a place about 25 mi away all they sell is water and water purification systems. I just wanted to have a comparison reading to sort of check up on them and insure I don't get swindeled. LOL thanks for reply just looking for ballpark readings what you gave will help. Sincerely Curtis :biggrin: :wink:

 

[tjudy]

I will have to play with the heating water to lower alkalinity. That does not make sense based upon the physical properties of solutions. Hot water can hold a larger amount of dissolved solids. The way you create a supersaturated solution is to heat a saturated solution up, dissolve more solute into it, and then let it cool.

 

[mematrix]

Re to post and update

Hi All. Yes I thought that heating a substance alows more infusion also. I just got off the phone with my water company and this is what I found out about my water.

4 milgrams per liter cloride
130 milgrams per liter sulfide
400-500 milgrams per liter calcium carbonate( as of last reading 467)
500-600 milgrams prer liter bicarbonate (as of last reading 570)
.11 milgrams per liter nitrites and nitrates
6 milgrams per liter dGH ( said it was very soft)
TDS 453 PH 8.1-8.6

Of course this is french/german to me But sounds like I got liquid BC powder for heart burn.LOL Can some one explain Somewhat what I was just told I know items 3 and 4 have something to do with KH and I would like to knoe hoe to if possible to lower them. and keep them lowered. Sincerely Curtis

 

[tjudy]

It is the calcium carbonate and the bicarbonate that are causing your high pH problems. They are the alkalinity buffers.

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Curtis,

I've had good luck using a peat water 'tea'. I found that a little bit of peat in a filter had very little effect on the water, but using peat water works great. It tints the water slightly yellowish brown, but most of this clears up in a few days as small suspended particles are filtered out.

I use a 30 gallon plastic barrel to mix my peat water. I dump in a 5 gallon bucket of pure spaghum peat moss and fill it up with water. I bubble it with an air stone and stir in the peat moss fromm time to time. After about 3 or 4 days my pH is 4.5 and KH1.

By straining the peat water with cheese cloth and filter floss before adding it to your tank will remove much of the suspended particles, but I don't bother as it doesn't hurt the fish and I just vacuum most of it off the bottom the next day.

I think peat water also has other chemicals in it that stimulate the fish to breed. Cacatuoides do fine in neutral pH with moderate hardness, but I've had a couple pair that would only spawn after I added a gallon of peat water. This little bit of peat water had almost no effect on pH or hardness, but it sure excited the couple into spawning.

Michael

 

[mematrix]

Re to replies

:biggrin: Thanks All. For help I will be purchasing some RO water very shortly and looking int investing into a RO unit. On a much more positive note I am attempting to artifically hatch some 100+ eggs laid 48hrs ago I have them in a 1qt jar with aration I am using ozarka distilled water with 12 drops per 12 hrs of 3% hydrogen peroxcide as anti fungal and all 100+ eggs have eyes. YeeHaa all looks good so far.

Sincerely Curtis :biggrin: :wink:

 

[Mike Wise]

My calculations say that you have liquid cement for water:
~25º dGH & 50-60º dKH!

I doubt that sphagnum peat will help this water. My suggestion is to not use the water out of the tap for apistos unless you run it through an R/O unit. I also suggest that you frequently back-flush the unit with R/O water or the membrane will clog quickly. This type of operation means that you will need to buy something other than an economy model.

4 milgrams per liter cloride
130 milgrams per liter sulfide
400-500 milgrams per liter calcium carbonate( as of last reading 467)
500-600 milgrams prer liter bicarbonate (as of last reading 570)
.11 milgrams per liter nitrites and nitrates
6 milgrams per liter dGH ( said it was very soft)
TDS 453 PH 8.1-8.6

Of course this is french/german to me But sounds like I got liquid BC powder for heart burn.LOL Can some one explain Somewhat what I was just told I know items 3 and 4 have something to do with KH and I would like to knoe hoe to if possible to lower them. and keep them lowered.

 

[cichlid11]

I myself have Hard, high PH water, about 8-8.5. I have tested water I have filtered through my Brita filter, It has a PH of 6.5 and according to the advertising it is supposed to make the water softer. I haven't the equipment to test the water, Would this be a safe alternative to an RO unit. I realise it might not be a pure.

Thanks

 

[Mike Wise]

My guess is that your Brita softens the water by exchanging Ca & Mg ions for Na ions. This process increases the electrical conductivity of the water, something that is bad for apisto breeding.

 

[Red Baron]

Hi All. I keep quite a few dwarfs I can't seem to get any but My borelliis and rams to spawn. And though the rams I have raised 2 spawns by removing the eggs from parents. I can not get succesful spawns frome the rest. I have fairly soft water around 25-50ppm t gh. But my water is very alkaline around 300ppm+ t kh so my water ph is 8.4. Been using seachem acid buffer to lower the ph but it returns to original readings in 1-2 days. This acid buffer says it conferts alkalinity to CO2. This water chem is darn near a foreign language to me. It really frustrates me that my water won't stay stable or should I say is so stable it won't remain at 6.5 range. As far as I can tell I have no rocks or gravel which leaches into my water. It tests strait out of tap 8.4 ph 300+ppm t alkalinity/buffering cap. 25ppm t hardness 0 ppm nitrite 0 ppm nitrate. have tryied peat in filter combined with drift wood in tank. I used a water softner pillow bt Aquarium pharmaceuticals inc. and seachem acid buffer not at same time. Any sugestions other than buying a RO unit. Sincerely Curtis

Hi there I asume that you are talking about water conditioning. First all did you do the water measurements form the water in your tank or straight of the tap. Your water condition seem to have a high p.h. But first before you can start treating it why don`t you let us know what sort of filters and medias you are using. Cause certain medias used in the aquarium filtration system does affect it alot.

Cheers mate .

 

[dr.fishy]

Hi Just thought I'd add my two cents worth here.. I have had pretty good success with rain water from a good source (off the top of the roof through rain gutters and into a barrel lined with plastic then filtered with diatoms). The rain gutters are always full of leaves from oak & maple trees and have been sitting there for some time(uh..humm..) And will probably remain there until someone gets UN-Lazy!
The PH came off the top at 6.8-6.9 versus the tap at 7.0-7.1 not a great difference but it was enough so that I could breed discus more easily. If you happen to have this arrangment available you could try it on some other fishes, testing for any problems, then use as needed. It might work for your water but maybe not to the extent you need (your water is really hard compared to mine).
Dr. Fishy

 

[cichlid11]

My guess is that your Brita softens the water by exchanging Ca & Mg ions for Na ions. This process increases the electrical conductivity of the water, something that is bad for apisto breeding.

If that is the case,(I will investigate) is it easy to reduce the conductivity of the water.

Thanks

 

[Mike Wise]

The only way to lower conductivity that I know about is by removing the ions (impractical) or diluting the water with water having a lower (preferably no) mineral hardness.