Is softened water harmful?

[The Shrimp Pimp]

I have relatively hard water at home and I just installed a water softener that removes calcium and magnésium by using sodium chloride. I was wondering if this is considered soft water and if it's fish safe (and shrimp safe!)?

 

[yukondog]

Sorry I cant help, but welcome to the sight.

 

[Mike Wise]

It softens the carbonate hardness (dKH) but increases the electrical conductivity by a factor of 2. You replace 1 Ca/Mg ion with 2 Na ions. So, technically, the water is softer (lower dKH) but it is worse for blackwater fish adapted to soft/low e.c. water.

 

[The Shrimp Pimp]

It softens the carbonate hardness (dKH) but increases the electrical conductivity by a factor of 2. You replace 1 Ca/Mg ion with 2 Na ions. So, technically, the water is softer (lower dKH) but it is worse for blackwater fish adapted to soft/low e.c. water.

So I've got a 75 gallon with some Apisto caucatoides. Do these fish require low e.c.? If so, what would be the best way for me to lower my electrical conductivity?

 

[Mike Wise]

If the fish are a domestic strain and your tank's pH (not just your tap water) is below 8, then they should be fine with the water that you drink. Dr. Staeck collected a form of A. cacatuoides (A. cf. cacatuoides Chicosa) in the wild in water with 14° dKH and 387 µS/cm conductivity.

 

[Tom C]

It softens the carbonate hardness (dKH) but increases the electrical conductivity by a factor of 2. You replace 1 Ca/Mg ion with 2 Na ions. So, technically, the water is softer (lower dKH) but it is worse for blackwater fish adapted to soft/low e.c. water.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this.
GH hardness is due to Ca++ and Mg++ ions, and soft water has a low GH and hard water has a high GH.
KH alkalinity is due to carbonate, bicarbonate, phosphate etc. and is a measure of pH stability (capability to resist pH change because of added acids).
How is it possible to affect ("softens") the KH by removing Ca and Mg ions?

 

[MacZ]

Mike described the theory behind household water softening units as they are often used in areas with high GH in the water. These units are especially often present in appartment buildings, pretreating for the whole house, giving the tennants no choice.

They only "soften" in the sense of washing machine manufacturers, meaning they reduce GH, by ion replacement, but leave KH usually as is or raise it. It's the Ca and Mg that build up as scaling in washing machines and water kettles, not or less so the carbonates.

Here where I live people that have a softening unit in the house report readings like GH 4° with KH 16°, though the unaltered tap in the neighbourhood would read 18° GH to 14° KH.
In any case the GH is then low after treatment, protecting machines and piping, while KH is high and Na ions give the water conductivity readings of 600µSi and more.
I had to work my way into that stuff lately when a friend was setting up a tank and had the exact problem of a softening system in the basement. The numbers are the results of me testing his water. He made the decision to do a brackish tank then instead of blackwater.

I would use water treated that way only after running it through a de-ionizer or an RO unit.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

GH hardness is due to Ca++ and Mg++ ions, and soft water has a low GH and hard water has a high GH.
KH alkalinity is due to carbonate, bicarbonate, phosphate etc. and is a measure of pH stability (capability to resist pH change because of added acids).
How is it possible to affect ("softens") the KH by removing Ca and Mg ions?

Yes, it is <"strong acid"> exchange so it doesn't effect the carbonate anion, just the cation and it changes dGH, (by swapping two Na+ ions for a Ca++ ion), but not the dKH (carbonate hardness).

The advantage for household showers etc is that sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) is soluble and doesn't block showers etc with lime "scale".

cheers Darrel

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, Tom, I goofed again. It is dGH not dKH that is redused. Either way it softens the water but increases conductivity.

 

[Tom C]

...It is dGH not dKH that is redused.

Remember what Frank recently taught us, Mike: Alfred Krupp said: "Wer arbeitet, macht Fehler. Wer viel arbeitet, macht mehr Fehler. Nur wer die Hände in den Schoß legt, macht gar keine Fehler".
What actually made me a little unsure if there was anything wrong was Darrel's "Like" and that no one else reacted ...

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

little unsure if there was anything wrong was Darrel's "Like" and that no one else reacted

The conclusion and the cation exchange bit were right, it just reduces dGH rather than dKH and that is near enough for me.

Alfred Krupp said: "Wer arbeitet, macht Fehler. Wer viel arbeitet, macht mehr Fehler. Nur wer die Hände in den Schoß legt, macht gar keine Fehler".

Agreed if you've made 10,500 posts your allowed the occasional one that is ~95% correct.

cheers Darrel

 

[Tom C]

The conclusion and the cation exchange bit were right, it just reduces dGH rather than dKH and that is near enough for me.

I hope you understand that the fact that your "Like" made me unsure is because I have great respect for your knowledge!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I hope you understand that the fact that your "Like" made me unsure is because I have great respect for your knowledge!

Tom thank you, that makes me a bit better on what is a truly horrible day in England (cold, wet, windy etc). It certainly beats some of the other comments <"I've received over the years"> on <"forums">.

cheers Darrel