Help ID A.sp.Abacaxis: A227 or A228?

[harryprog]

Hello,
In october last year I bought 2 young A.sp.Abacaxis on the market in Duisbuirg, Germany. Unfortunately it were two females and before I noticed one female killed the other. Since then I had only one female. From what I've heard it should be an A227:

Luckily I finally could arrange more A.sp.Abacaxis: one female and two males. But when I look closely the males look like the A228 because the stripes on the caudal fin:

This is the female which came with the 2 males:

My question:
Which A.sp.Abacaxis are these all? How to handle with breeding? When the first female I had is an A227 and the new male an A228, is it wise to breed with them?

 

[Mike Wise]

Your new fish are similar to A228 - a population of A. sp. Abacaxis that the Japanese originally imported from the Rio Marimari. A227 & A228 appear to be different forms of the same species. I have had the 2 populations cross without problems. Actually, for me it was easier to breed across populations than breed the same population together. Your results may vary.

 

[harryprog]

Mike, was it easier to breed across populations because it's hard to get the species? It took me 8 months to find a male, and now it's a different population. You say 'just cross them'?

Here are some pictures of today:

 

[blueblue]

Your new fish are similar to A228 - a population of A. sp. Abacaxis that the Japanese originally imported from the Rio Marimari. A227 & A228 appear to be different forms of the same species. I have had the 2 populations cross without problems. Actually, for me it was easier to breed across populations than breed the same population together. Your results may vary.

Mike, here in HK, we got wildcaught of both from the same source/import... breeding doesn't seem to be different from our HK hobbyists' experience and this species belongs to those which are very easy to breed under the "standard" setting here (again, most of us use ADA substrate with a simple sponge filter in a small (20 liter) tank for a pair...)

 

[Mike Wise]

What I reported was only my personal experience with both forms. I got my A227 'Wilhelmi' form from Römer; the A228 Marimari form from an American hobbyist. Römer's male didn't breed for me. It died and I put a 228 male in with the A227 female. Within 10 days, I had a female with a large number of fry. All that I meant by this, is that the 2 forms easily & willingly interbreed and produce large numbers of viable fry. Since the Abacaxis & Marimari are neighboring rivers, only a few kilometers apart, it is most likely that the 2 forms are the same species.

 

[harryprog]

Thanks Mike, since it could be the same species then I also think it's no problem cross these species. Great!

 

[fishme.]

ok they are the same species but is it right to breed different forms?

isn't it something like a hybryd?

does this happens in the wild?

 

[Gillie]

Crossing the two forms will only generate offspring of both forms and possibly a new color form, but since they are the same species there is no hybridization. I doubt the crossings happen in nature, as most differences are regional variations.

 

[blueblue]

ok they are the same species but is it wise to breed different forms?

isn't it something like a hybryd?

does this happens in the wild?

basically, we have acquired wildcaught fish which looked in the middle between the two, thus, i think natural crossing exists and it makes sense to
me that they belong to the same species.

 

[Shane]

Hi Mike,

I recently got a group of A. sp. Abacaxis from a local friend of mine. The males have blue caudal fins with the caudal patterning through the entire caudal fin and where the lateral band extends deeply into the caudal fin. From these observations, we deduced that the males are most likely A228.

Are these the only distinguishing characteristics that outline the differences between both populations? Do both populations have members with orange/blue polychromatic caudal fins?

I know @miguelgr7 recently got some as well, and his seem to look somewhat similar. Miguel can maybe post his pictures here... when I get some time to take some I can post as well.

Sorry to bring this thread back from the past just to ask this question!

 

[Mike Wise]

For me color is of minor importance. Without seeing the fish you could be discussing some other pulchra-complex species, too.

 

[miguelgr7]

For me color is of minor importance. Without seeing the fish you could be discussing some other pulchra-complex species, too.

Hello @Mike Wise a few years ago i talked to mark breeze about their color and he told me: "That form looks more like A.sp.Abacaxis (A228), they form that used to be called A.cf.pulchra Marimari. The difference is that the spots or stripes in the caudal cover most of the fin and it is slightly blue in colour. This form occurs in the Rio Marimari, just upstream from where the Rio Abacaxis enters the Rio Madeira." so this fish could be called Apistogramma cf. sp. Abacaxis Rio Marimari ??

 

[Mike Wise]

This is the Marimari form. It's labled A. cf. sp. Abacaxis (Marimari) on my species list. I'm guessing that the male in the photo is wildcaught, based on the presence of 'black spot syndrome' on the body and fins. I don't recall ever seeing it on Brazilian fish before, but I guess it's possible.

 

[miguelgr7]

This is the Marimari form. It's labled A. cf. sp. Abacaxis (Marimari) on my species list. I'm guessing that the male in the photo is wildcaught, based on the presence of 'black spot syndrome' on the body and fins. I don't recall ever seeing it on Brazilian fish before, but I guess it's possible.

Thanks @Mike Wise for the confirmation of the name I will now rename it as Ap. cf. sp. Abacaxis Rio Marimari.

Greetings