Help, I cant grow most of my plants

[chiahead]

I just recently set up a new 80 gallon planted tank about 6-8 weeks ago. I am having alot of problems. Let me tell you about my set up. 80 gallon with 260 watts compact pc lighting by Coralife. Injected Co2 with ph controller set at 6.6 ph. Dupla 500-150 watt substrate heaters set 1/2 hour on and 2 hours off(tank temp is at 75-78 Degrees F). Substrate is bottom 1.5 inch of flourite(taken from another 1 year old setup), then 1.5 inch of Eco-Complete over that, then 1.5 inch of new Flourite over that, and then top 2 inches is Seachem Onyx Sand. The plants I have had in are: Diandra(died quickly-roots and bottom of stems turned black even after a replant), Rotala Walachii(no root structure, all leaves fell off due to shock, tips are barely starting to grow again), micro sword(came is awesome condidtion, no new growth of any kind-at all), various types of anubias ex. nana, coffeolia, gracilis, congenius, emerald heart, etc.(new growth was deformed like half a leaf and yellow colors, some even with red speckles in them, currently leaves are melting, transparent and holey) moneywort seems ok but growing slowly, rotala indica(grew fast at first, now is slow and stems seem very dirty and darker than others i have seen, baby tears(same as rotala, now growing slow and dirty looking), I just planted glossostigma(signs of new growth all over, but appears to be growing upward only planted 4 days ago) What a pain to plant this one. Cryptocryne Parva also recently planted no signs of anything yet. I assumed that the fertilizers were not correct so I have been adjusting them alot. I started using about 8ml of Seachem(combo of flourish, iron, potassium, and nitrate mix per maximum dosage on bottle) along with the PMDD. My water stats are PH-6.6, kh-6, gh-14, iron-0, phosphate-0, nitrate 15, Co2-40 ppm. I have never been able to get a good iron reading either. I can dose 20 ml of Seachem iron in the morning and by the night time my test reads zero. I dont know where it goes, kinda wierd though. Maybe the substrate is absorbing it along with the other fertilizers. I use Salifert tests, but also use Red Sea, and some Nutrafin. I have had a problem with the GH-it keeps raising and I dont know why. I use purified water only, KH and GH is 0. I change at least 25 gallons a week. I got my GH down to 9 but it raises a degree every other day-possibly due to the Onyx sand and substrate heaters.

 

[Everett]

I wouldn't shed tears over the diandra, it is a spiteful plant that tends to die off on even some of the veterans in the hobby over time. The wallichi usually grows best in aged substrates, at least for me. You may try floating some stems giving them the really intense light can make a nice strand for you to harvest. The Parva is goin to grow very slowly. But for all intensive purposes, your conditions look as though they should be able to support plant growth.

I would like to hear more about the fertilizers, specifically how/what you have dosed over the last two months? What is your photo period? As long as you aren't using actinic your bulbs are probably fine from coralife. Have you had any algea growth? How the plants are planted? Did you bury them deeply, are any shaded by other plants? Burying the rhizome of plants could cause problems. What kind of filter and media are you using? Also, why are you using RO water, or is it RO/DI? Finally, where and how did you get your plants? You mention shock, are you in a cold region? In regards to the GH raising, are there any rocks that you added for hardscape?

~E

 

[chiahead]

Thank u so much for the reply. Originally my ferts were a PMDD mix drawn directly from the Krib. I was dosing 2-3ml daily with an auto fertilizer by Ehiem. After I thought I was seeing distorted stunted slow growth I began adding a combo of SeaChem ferts(Flourish, Iron, Potassium, Nitrogen). All ferts were phosphate limited. I honestly was getting no algea growth of any kind. I intentionally was overdosing the ferts to see if I could grow some algea, but I couldnt even do that. It ended up spiking my nitrates way too high. I have my lights on for 12 solid and 1/2 the lights on for 1 hour before and after this time for a dawn/dusk setting. The bulbs are 6700k rating. Since my substrate is deep, Originally I planted the stem plants deep, obviously the Anubias was left with the rhizome just showing. A note on the Anubias. Some of them that I got mail order had their roots attached to some 1.5 inch long branch piece. Appears to be cutt off of a trunk of some sorts. All of them turned a mushy black mess, and smelled badly. I pulled them off and replanted them. The roots on the Criminum were all black yesterday so I tossed it-the bottom was squishy black and smelly as well. I am using a canister filter with aqua chargers in it(great biological) and a powerhead. The water I am getting is purified R.O. water straight. I ordered my plants from Aquariumplant.com, they came in decent to good shape. Some I purchased locally. I am in a very hot region in Phoenix Arizona. I have no rocks in the tank to raise the GH, it has to be coming from the onyx sand in the substrate. I even turned the substrate heaters off for 2 days to see if they were causing something to precepitate from the gravel but it still rose the same. I tested yesterday here is what I got:
PH-6.6
kh-4
gh-14
nitrate-20ppm
phosphate-3ppm(i tried using a discus buffer to try and lower the gh-it was phosphate based-big mistake-am doing a water change asap)
iron-0

 

[Everett]

All i can really do is bounce thoughts off you in this case, and direct you to plant people. The crinum bulb should have sat on the surface of the substrate too. I can come up with two probes for a potential problem, is how many times per hour is your water turned completely over? It should be somewhere between 3-6x. The discus buffer also messes up your CO2 concentration, by the KH/pH scales you see around. Maybe your CO2 is 5ppm instead of 40, i dunno. In your high light though I would think that would cause an algae bloom in 2months.

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop....&m=5856082052&r=5956006152#5956006152

Maybe you can find some info on that site, they are much more dedicated to the plants than the apistos. Read the thread "lights for a 10g" for tips on getting the glosso to grow down. If it was a pita the first time you'll hate it the second time too.

For comparison. My display is about 1/2 the size of yours
(20x20x24H) about 41.5gallons w/ 176watts over top 11h photoperiod

M 5ml of flourish, a pinch of CaNO3, and MgSO4
T 5ml flourish iron/15ml trace
W 10ml flourish
Th 15ml trace
F 5ml flourish
S/Sun 20% water change and dose some K, 1/2 teaspoon of KNO3.

 

[chiahead]

thank you for your help, I will try that link you gave me

 

[LyreTail]

You did not mention potassium - you are going to need a lot of potassium with 260 watts. Flourish is mostly just traces. You might want to find some KNO3 and some KCl ( potassium nitrate and potassium chloride) to fulfill nitrate and potassium requirements. http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm

Iron tests are notoriously inaccurate - I do not test anymore and the Fluorite provides lots of iron to any plants that utilize iron through roots

Another thing - Cora life has two 260 watt fixtures. I am using the freshwater 6700 kelvin one for a 75 gal. The marine one is a 505/50 setup with blue actinic bulbs and 10,000 kelvin white bulbs. Not really good for a plant tank.
I have also been unhappy with how small the fan turns inside the fixture as the fixture gets hot. It has cracked one of my glass lids so far. If I had to do it over again , I would have done the AH supply lights and added a Radio shack AC fan like I made for my 46 gallon bow front.

Some plants do not like CO2- always something to take into consideration. You might also lower the CO2 to 20 to 25 mg/l as jacking it up to 40 seems like a waste. I have seen no additional benefit in my 3 Compressed CO2 planted tanks when raising the CO2 above 25ppm

 

[aspen]

a couple of thoughts:

what you need to grow plants is, a good complete fert with iron and all of the micro nutrients, and the macros (N, P, and K) in a good supply. i use all of the kits when figuring things out, then watch plant growth after that. you have something in your tank, and you don't know what it is. (gh and kh are rising). that would bother me. you understand the idea of fertilisation levels, but no-one can help you till you identify the unknown element. imo onyx doesn't raise the hardness as you've described according to others' experiences, and according to seachem.

you are keeping a softwater tank, so the water should be kept soft. make it so, and i bet that you figure out where your problem's are. i also bet that your co2 is not as high as you think it is, ie, your calculations are in error due to unknown water parm factor.

if you have any of that discus buffer in your tank, or any other ph buffer, get it out, or forget the idea of target ph and co2.

what you are desrcibing is something like a 'toxic soup' for plants if they are dying so quickly. isn't that how you would describe it?

rick

 

[chiahead]

I did actually use some discus buffer. What a mistake. My phosphates went off the map. I just did a 50% water change and the phosphate is still reading above 3 ppm. I guees I will keep water changing until it is ok. The onxy sand raising KH but is not supposed to raise the GH. Any thought of the Eco Complete reacting with the Onxy sand? I remember the bag said not to mix it with some minerals. I do have some growth, not everything is dead. My growth is slower than normal and distorted wierd. Mishapen leaves, rotting roots, yellow stunted leaves. Some with red speckles in ther leaf, even the new ones are showing red speckles. Any ideas?

 

[aspen]

i would highly doubt that you have a problem with a missing element or mineral. it sounds like your substrate is wrong or bad or something, yet the parts of it have been used by thousands of people with success.

take a sample of each component of your substrate and see if you can raise the gh in a sample of pure r/o water. maybe start there. tossing the substrate without knowing what the problem is makes no sense to me, but if there are no other mineral sources what else could it be that are adding minerals to the tank?

going strictly from what you've said, even if your co2 were 5 ppm or less, plants would settle in and start growing nicely, albeit slowly, esp the anubias. if your phosphate readings were too high, plants would still grow very well, but algae would start to grow out of control at some point ime. what you are describing is quite a bit like the start of an average tank, with possibly (imo) too much fertilisation. you should see the plants establish themselves, roots take hold and plant growth good and normal. something is different from any tank i've ever started... don't take any signs from the crypts. they can come and go as they please in a new set-up. ime they are very hit and miss as to whether they will establish themselves.

a stupid question... what rate of pearling are you getting from the plants? (o2 bubbles forming on the leaves during the light on periods.)

rick

 

[chiahead]

I would like ot know if anyone has combined these substrates before. I will try the sample and see what happens-good advice. The pearling rate is very sporadic. Most of the plants dont bubble much, some anubias bubble from deat stem areas or from the same spot in the leaf. None have a great coverage of bubble like I should be seeing. In fact I have another 29 gallon with straight Flourite and no co2 and its bubbling more than the 80. It has to be the substrate. I think I will remove the sand in all areas except the glosso area. For me to replant that it would suck. I am worried that the eco is reacting with the sand though. Something wierd is my leaves on the anubias had red speckles especially in the new leaves. The new leaves have stunted distorted growth, like missing the tip and small. I cannot find anything telling me about red speckles in the leaves, kinda wierd.

 

[aspen]

i don't know of any deficiency problem involving red speckles, and i've never seen it. but could it be a plant disease? is this only on one species of plant? it isn't a new hybrid anubias is it?

this is worth glancing at...

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/nutrient-deficiency.html

the distorted leaf formation seems to be caused by a calcium deficiency. really though if your plants are not pearling then your rate of growth is very slow, not quick enough even to use up the stored nutrients you bought them with 8 weeks ago except the iron which you are dosing.

rick

 

[chiahead]

I am going to try a sample test with the water and then add the sand. Test then I will do the same with the eco and then combine and see what I get. I have poured alot of money into this and it looks sad, actually my glosso seems to be growing in very low so that looks promising.

Thanks for your advice!!

 

[aspen]

you have a great set-up. lots of light, co2 and (from the sounds of it) a promising substrate which MAY or may not be an issue. the next person who says to you that they know what your problem is, and you need to buy so-and-so to fix it easily, needs to be avoided. you have everything, it just needs some adjustment. with the equipment and supplies you've purchased, there is no reason except for a little more experience that your set-up won't look great and grow huge healthy plants. your 80 gal tank is a better depth to get light penetration to the glosso than a 90.

>>'You may try floating some stems giving them the really intense light can make a nice strand for you to harvest.'

this is great advice. it can be used on almost any plant, i have used this to get glosso to grow roots to make it easier to plant- simply let it float and roots will grow out for you.. and it will rule out or prove some problems that may be attributable to your substrate. i have also used and seen other let their cabomba or stargrass (h. zostefolia) and other stems grow across the top, to get some nice healthy cuttings for re-plant, after pulling out the bottoms.

i disagree with the idea that you need huge water turn-over to get your plants to grow. you don't need to look far for tanks with NO filters growing great plants with a light fishload. nitrification happens on all of the surfaces, and is in direct competition with the plants for the nitrogeneous wastes produced by the fish. it doesn't need to happen in a filter. for appearance sake, the water needs to look clear, and also for light penetration. is the water clear or has it stained a little tan or brown from the eco complete?

you haven't mentioned fish load. what fish are in there, and how are they responding to the water quality in the tank? (colour, are they breeding, any deaths etc)

rick

 

[Everett]

Compacting on roots seems like an botanical legend, but it may actually happen in such a deep aquarium substate. Someone else with experience will have to bat that thought around for me though.

-Sorry i lost track of the thread and missed you were taking it out

 

[chiahead]

I just recently removed all the plants and mixed the previously layered substrate. I cut back on the ferts to see if I was dosing too much and creating a fert toxicity. I removed the fish and lowered the water half full. I am upping the co2 and will try to jump start my almost dead plants. Good sign, they are bubbling but they look really sad. I will update on the progress. Thanks for the help!