Yet another cycling question.. but a bit different

[Stijn1191]

Hi all,

I've been reading a lot about blackwater cycling but some strange things are happening with my new set-up.

Context:
Tank 90x60x45
Oase Experience 150
A LOT of wood. All the staining (in the photo below) of the water is from the wood. Because of the angle of the photo you can't really see how much wood it is. But about 1/4th-1/5th of the water volume is wood.

+- December 13: I've filled the aquarium up with RO water and kept it plain with big pieces of wood so they would become waterlodged and sink.
December 28: Most of them sunk and I put the substrate in (a layer of sand) and squeezed some filter sponges in there from an aquarium that's been running fine for years. And I added some Amazon frogbit from that aquarium as well. But they kept dying off and I needed to add more throughout the upcoming weeks, probably because of the GH shift. Now (the present), finally they are adjusting and forming new growth.
January 11: Added a bunch of leave litter, not too much though, see photo below)
January 17: Added terrastial plants (Monstera, Philodendron, Bromelia's and a fern) with the roots (and yes some leaves are hanging in there as well ) in the water.
January 23: Hydrocytle, Nymphaeae and Echinodorus arrived and planted it.
This week a big boom of Copepods started accuring.. So that's usually a sign the water is ready

Or not..

Now the problem: January 19th a did a full water test (the testkit is almost 3 years old though) and I got the following values:
temp: 24 degrees celcius
PH: 6.3
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 5ppm (!)
Nitrate: 80ppm (!)
Phosphate: +- 0.7ppm
GH & KH: (didn't measure, should be 0)
TDS: 50

So. As you might imagine I was a bit shocked by the nitrites and nitrates, while the ammonia was at 0.
Is this common/normal?

As for the future: Tomorrow some Cabomba and Pistia should arrive, I ordered them to help out in the starting phase of the tank. Furthermore I do about 30% waterchanges a week now (pure RO). I ordered some WC fish (Apisto & Laetacara) which are already waiting for me at the shop, but I'm afraid to take them now, because the watervalues are a big no-no to me.

(Don't mind the bag of stones on one last piece of wood which doesn't seem to want to sink yet).

Some insigths will be much appreciated!

 

[MacZ]

temp: 24 degrees celcius
TDS: 50

These are the only values I would trust in this case. The testkit is very likely off. What manufacturer are you using?

So. As you might imagine I was a bit shocked by the nitrites and nitrates, while the ammonia was at 0.
Is this common/normal?

The nitrate is higher than expectable, without any waterchanges and plants using the stuff up I'd expect maybe 40mg/l and not 80. The nitrite can't be right, though. So no, not normal. But again, I doubt the readings are correct.
Get new tests, add plants (let the cabomba float!) and don't overdo it with the waterchanges until you have correct readings.

I ordered some WC fish (Apisto & Laetacara) which are already waiting for me at the shop,

Both for this tank!? Erm... I'd choose one. Not both. Not gonna end well.

 

[Stijn1191]

Colombo, in the Netherlands it's a trusted brand and previously for my other tank it worked well. But yeah, maybe I'll order another new kit to double check. And I'll let the cabomba float.

No? I read that Laetacara Thayeri are quite shy and they have quite a different shape than the Apisto's (Agassizii), so I thought it would work out. (Also with lots of wood to break line-sight).

I might need to choose only one of them then .
Thanks for the quick reply btw

 

[MacZ]

Colombo, in the Netherlands it's a trusted brand

Yeah I know. Living less than 100km from the border in Germany. They use the same chemicals as JBL and Sera, so get a new kit for NO2 and NO3, your's is very likely off.

No? I read that Laetacara Thayeri are quite shy and they have quite a different shape than the Apisto's (Agassizii), so I thought it would work out. (Also with lots of wood to break line-sight).

In a 150 or 200cm tank - all good. I'd do it myself. In less than a meter, though... then it's only about sight breaks within a species, but everything else that stays too close to the bottom is fair game for whichever species is going to get the upper hand. I'd either decide which one you want and cancel part of your order or get a second tank asap to separate them if trouble arises.

Thanks for the quick reply btw

Alsjeblieft, same time zone, you will most likely get quick replies from the other Dutch, the British and Germans here on the forum and some delayed answers from across the pond.

 

[Stijn1191]

I ordered new NO2 and NO3 tests , should arrive tomorrow or monday.
Furthermore, I also added some blackworms and they are doing okay + I see quite some seed shrimp... My guess is that the water quality is good enough. But let's wait for the tests to be sure.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Nitrite: 5ppm (!)
Nitrate: 80ppm (!)

It is likely to be one of the reagents.

TDS: 50

@MacZ is right, that is the only value you need to tell you that you don't have that amount of nitrite (NO2-) and nitrate (NO3-). They are ions, they conduct electricity and your TDS is measuring the amount of ions in solution and "converting" them to a ppm TDS reading.

Even if your meter conversion factor is reading at 0.5 (100 microS = 50 ppm TDS) you would need all your ions to be NO3 and NO2 to give that value.

cheers Darrel

 

[Stijn1191]

Even if your meter conversion factor is reading at 0.5 (100 microS = 50 ppm TDS) you would need all your ions to be NO3 and NO2 to give that value.

Thanks! But what if it's only NO2 and NO3? Because I didn't add any plant fertilizers or salts to raise the GH. Then It would make sense right?

 

[MacZ]

Thanks! But what if it's only NO2 and NO3? Because I didn't add any plant fertilizers or salts to raise the GH. Then It would make sense right?

See, RO units leave some ions in (usually between 5 and 20µS/cm) so that is a part of it, then there are H+Ions and some other dissolved solids from the sand and so on. If you have a TDS-reading of 50 mg/l the sum of all the dissolved solids can't exceed the TDS. NO2 and NO3 together would sum up to over 30 mg/l more than are accounted for in the TDS. They are also counted as strong electrolytes, so they would in fact raise TDS more than raising EC at some point.

If we estimate a base TDS-Level in your tank of 10-20mg/l containing all sorts of stuff, there is by far not enough left to justify the presence of that high concentrations of nitrogen compounds.

Of course your EC-Meter might be off, too. But the likelihood a three year old drip test is off, is just higher.

 

[Stijn1191]

Sooo, the new tests came in.. I think the nitrite is lower (about 2ppm) and no3 as well (around 40ppm).. still way too high to my liking. See image below (my camera doesnt take the colours of the liquid too well).

Only thing i can think of is that the aquarium water is heavily tinted, could that skew the results?

 

[MacZ]

Only thing i can think of is that the aquarium water is heavily tinted, could that skew the results?

Yes. Each of the readings is 1-2 steps lower than you are getting.
I presume Nitrite is below detection, Nitrate between 10 and 20mg/l.

So, I'd do some 30-50% waterchanges the days before you get the fish.
Also, what have you decided for now? Apistogramma or Laetacara? I hope it's the latter. I love dwarf cichlids, but gravitate towards non-Apistogramma. I mean... obvious with my Dicrossus-Avatar.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Sooo, the new tests came in.. I think the nitrite is lower (about 2ppm) and no3 as well (around 40ppm).. still way too high to my liking. See image below (my camera doesnt take the colours of the liquid too well).

Only thing i can think of is that the aquarium water is heavily tinted, could that skew the results?
View attachment 14214

The water colour will have some effect, but I'm pretty sure that the compounds being measured aren't (all) NO2 and NO3.

Cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Hi all,

The water colour will have some effect, but I'm pretty sure that the compounds being measured aren't (all) NO2 and NO3.

Cheers Darrel

Absolutely!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Absolutely!

I should have said that it Is the humic acid that is the likely compound. It interferes with both NO2 and NO3 testing when you are using hydrazine reduction and diazonium (to give you the red colour,).

An ion selective electrode would get around this, but most testing nitrate testing methods have some issues.

Cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

For NO3 I still prefer test strips, frankly. If handled correctly they work just fine. Needless to say I always get zeros on nitrogen compounds.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

For NO3 I still prefer test strips, frankly

There are analytical techniques that work for nitrate (NO3-), but for most of us it really is "pick a number". It was actually the difficulties with getting <"accurate values for NO3"> that initially led to the development of the <"Duckweed Index">.

I started working more with ecologists and from them I began to see that probability and inferential methods <"biotic indices etc"> were the way forward. It doesn't seem as "scientific" as analytical techniques, but it works.

cheers Darrel

 

[Stijn1191]

Soooo.. I did a big water change today and a shop nearby had 7 WC Nannostomus Eques (which were already on my wish list anyway). So I picked them up as "tryout" fish. Of course, I don't want them to die but it will hurt a bit less in the wallet if it's gonna be that case. They are almost done drip acclimating now.

Let's hope for the best!

As for the dwarf cichlids, I'm probably going to go for the Laetacara since they rarer and get a bit bigger .
Let's first wait a week and see how the nannostomus will do.

Hmm.. NO3 strip tests might be the next try out if the Nannostomus can't handle this water (luckily I have another aquarium set up, where I can house them if one or two die off).

 

[MacZ]

Hmm.. NO3 strip tests might be the next try out if the Nannostomus can't handle this water (luckily I have another aquarium set up, where I can house them if one or two die off).

NO3 is not relevant for the fish. NO2 is. The Nannostomus should do fine, I have them too.

 

[Stijn1191]

A few days in and all of them are doing fine. Eating well and behaving normally. So yup the NO2 was just fine I think!

Thank you both for all your help. Soon when they aquarium is totally set-up I'll post some pictures. I really like the Nannostomus

 

[Stijn1191]

Little sneak peak:
Hemigrammus Coeruleus, all the time at the front quite schooling, chunky and beautiful (the camera doesnt do the silver with red stripe and white tips on the fins justice) When its feeding time they attack like piranhas

Nannostomus are grouping together all the time, probably scared of the new big fishes. But all in all doing fine:

And two huge Laetacara Thayeri. One is about 10cm and the other around 8. But they are still quite scared and hard to photograph. When i sit still they sometimes come to the front and show nice fluorscent blue in the phase. The male has a yellow hue and the female a slight pink hue on the belly. I will try to get a good photo but that might take some time. At least you can see the white edge on their fins here

 

[Stijn1191]

A few more mins and i got 'm both. The first one is the female and the second one the male (longer fin tips)