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Cichlid tank

Eugene09

New Member
Messages
20
I am kind of new to keeping cichlids but I am getting a 55 gallon long tank that is planted but very little and has a bunch of caves and hiding spots. Because of that I am planning on getting 2 electric blue acara, 3 blue rams, 3 angelfish, an apistogramma, and some corydoras. I plan on having 2 filters, a hang on back and a sponge filter, and weekly 25% water changes. I am also going to keep the temperature at about 77-81 degrees. Please tell me if I am wrong about all of this and shouldn’t keep these fish like this.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
bunch of caves and hiding spots.
For all the species you want to get caves are useless. Driftwood and plants are necessary to break the lines of sight. A cichlid tank has to be well structured.

3 blue rams
a. Microgeophagus ramirezi need quite high temperatures, where at best the angelfish could go with.
b. They are not harem breeders, so a trio means one fish will die.
c. unless you get them from a specialized breeder or wild caught they tend to die after less than 6 months. Only with perfect conditions - Temp 28°C, soft water (GH/KH below 3°) and fine sand substrate - it's possible to keep the standard overbred massproduced farmfish alive longer than half a year.

3 angelfish
The tank is too small for these. Specifically too low. Angelfish can grow up to 25-30cm, a tank has to be at least 60cm high with a footprint of 150x60cm. A good group size would be 5-7, because otherwise a pair will be able to limit everybody else to one corner, no matter what species.

I plan on having 2 filters, a hang on back and a sponge filter, and weekly 25% water changes.
Filtration is irrelevant when the waterchanges are not enough. 50% waterchanges are really better with such dense stocking. To me 50% are standard anyways.

I am also going to keep the temperature at about 77-81 degrees.
Too low for the rams.

Please tell me if I am wrong about all of this and shouldn’t keep these fish like this.
As you already ask to be blunt like this: Scratch the plan. I'd rethink the whole concept and reduce the number of species significantly.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,366
My first hand experience has been group of 5-7 angels is a disaster; you are best off with 1,2 or 3 (but only 3 if they are all females).
 

MacZ

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Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
but only 3 if they are all females
Which is hardly possible from the start. Ever tried sexing angels at the size they are usually sold at?

My first hand experience has been group of 5-7 angels is a disaster; you are best off with 1,2 or
Yeah... well hard for a single fish to fight with itself. ;)
2 is also a disaster unless it's a pair and they have to be breeding otherwise this isn't better. Especially if they separate at some point. Angels don't form permanent pairs. Can be over between them in the blink of an eye.
5-7 in a 2m tank and the right structure though... no problem at all in my experience. What never really works out are even numbers.
 

Eugene09

New Member
Messages
20
Thank you for your advice. So will 2 angelfish, 2 blue acara and an apistogramma work or should i get 4 discus and 2 blue rams?
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,366
Which is hardly possible from the start. Ever tried sexing angels at the size they are usually sold at?


Yeah... well hard for a single fish to fight with itself. ;)
2 is also a disaster unless it's a pair and they have to be breeding otherwise this isn't better. Especially if they separate at some point. Angels don't form permanent pairs. Can be over between them in the blink of an eye.
5-7 in a 2m tank and the right structure though... no problem at all in my experience. What never really works out are even numbers.
Have you kept angels; with 2 there are 3 combination - m/f (pair); m/m - some light bickering unless both are identical strength else they will quickly come to a pecking order - 2f no fighting. Angels usually do not break up unless a better mate shows up. If only 2 the chances of a 'better' mate showing up is well nil.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,366
Thank you for your advice. So will 2 angelfish, 2 blue acara and an apistogramma work or should i get 4 discus and 2 blue rams?
4 discus and 2 blue ram is an interesting option but be aware both species can be a bit delicate. The temp would need to be around 84-86 for the discus; when you do water change the new water needs to be the same temp as the old - and the water has to be kept very clean. If you get young discus they will require constant feeding which will require constant (daily) water changes and you will be best off keeping the bottom bare so you can remove all uneaten food.
 

Eugene09

New Member
Messages
20
4 discus and 2 blue ram is an interesting option but be aware both species can be a bit delicate. The temp would need to be around 84-86 for the discus; when you do water change the new water needs to be the same temp as the old - and the water has to be kept very clean. If you get young discus they will require constant feeding which will require constant (daily) water changes and you will be best off keeping the bottom bare so you can remove all uneaten food.
So 2 angelfish and 2 acaras and an apistogramma won't work? And how much water would I have to change a day for the discus? I have some smaller tanks with smaller fish and I only water change once or twice a week.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Have you kept angels; with 2 there are 3 combination - m/f (pair); m/m - some light bickering unless both are identical strength else they will quickly come to a pecking order - 2f no fighting. Angels usually do not break up unless a better mate shows up. If only 2 the chances of a 'better' mate showing up is well nil.
Yes, I have had angels in my care (not my own tanks) before for quite some time. 2 adult males ended usually in the fish almost killing each other unless separated, pairs separated for unknown reasons and started fighting. Never had confirmed 2f alone, though. Only ever in groups.

should i get 4 discus and 2 blue rams?
No. Please no. Both species I would not count as beginner friendly, even if you are only a beginner in cichlids. You would need a much bigger tank for Discus long term.

So 2 angelfish and 2 acaras and an apistogramma won't work?
No, because your tank is still too small for angels and you have no guarantees what sexes you get with juvenile angels. Could mean you'd have to rehome them no matter what after some months when it becomes clear what you got.

And how much water would I have to change a day for the discus?
50-75% 2-6x a week, depending on your setup. Again, would require a much bigger tank long term and I wouldn't get any unless a tank upgrade is 100% safe to do and there is no insecurity financially or otherwise that you can't upgrade.
Also depends heavily on the type of discus: Wild, F1-F5, Softwater domestic strain, hardwater domestic strain... All can have quite different needs.
 

Eugene09

New Member
Messages
20
What about a 75 or a 125 gallon? With a group of 5 angels and 2 acaras and an apistogramma. I have had little experience with large tanks but I was planing on getting one after the 55 gallon. Might as well do it now.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
150x60x60 or 150x60x80cm would be the minimum tank sizes for keeping angels long term I can recommend without feeling bad.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,366
What about a 75 or a 125 gallon? With a group of 5 angels and 2 acaras and an apistogramma. I have had little experience with large tanks but I was planing on getting one after the 55 gallon. Might as well do it now.
A standard 55 gallon aquarium which is 48 inches long 13 inches wide and 21 inches tall is plenty large for 2 angels and 2 apistogramma but a 75 gallon would be a lot better as it would give the angels more ability to maneuver with the increase width of 18 inches; however if you get pairs (m/f); then structure would be critical. If the angels grow up together as young ones they will likely be ok even if m/m when they mature - at least that is my experience having bred angels and raised them a few times. They will likely leave the apisto alone and the apisto will likely take a lower portion of the tank but still you want a corner where the female apisto can nest without feeling threatened by the angels intruding. A coconut shell might work well for the female apisto (if you go that route); but still you want some drift wood and other barriers. if you get two male apisto then things will likely be ok but sometime they can be a bit aggressive towards each other depending on species and individual fishes.

The acara are more problematic because they will intimidate the apisto and intrude in their space and out compete the angels for food. The tank is plenty large for them and the other fishes but their behavior is more problematic. keyhole cichlid might work.
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If you end up with m/f breeding angels then you might or might not have a problem as it depends very much on individual pairs. I've had some very very gentle pairs that will justt intimidate anything within 6 inches of the eggs and other much more aggressive pairs that will viciously attack anything with in 3 feet. That is a big unknown that you simply won't know until the fishes mature.
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One big problem with mixing angles and apisto is that if you wish to add dither fishes they have to be large enough that the angels can't eat them but small enough they will not harass the apisto pair. Not relelvant if you buy 2 male apisto.
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NOTE: It is not recommended that you buy m/f apisto i'm just covering that case; also very few places will sell m/m apisto. If you really want to breed apisto you are much better buying a 20 long; adding 2 apisto and optionally a few pencil fishes; so in this fashion it really doens't make sense to mix angles and apisto in any scenario.
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Also the behavior of m or m/m apisto is very different than m/f apisto - so I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish.
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With angels there is an extremely wide variance in fish behavior which is further dependent on mix of sexes. I've found variance in angel behavior much greater than apisto - with some extremely passive fishes to other hyper aggressive. However most of the aggressive behavior is within the same species and not with other species (but they will eat anything that fit in their mouth).
 
Last edited:

Eugene09

New Member
Messages
20
Can you give me some recommendations on what fish to stock for the 75 gallon. I am not really looking to breed any fish I could try. I really want angelfish and maybe an acara or apistogramma but a keyhole cichlid could work. After all that information, I don't know what fish to choose. I never kept these so I'm asking you as experienced fish keepers.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,366
Can you give me some recommendations on what fish to stock for the 75 gallon. I am not really looking to breed any fish I could try. I really want angelfish and maybe an acara or apistogramma but a keyhole cichlid could work. After all that information, I don't know what fish to choose. I never kept these so I'm asking you as experienced fish keepers.
Infinite choices - first I would check your water type and ensure it is reasonably soft (gh less than 8); then i would do something similar in landscape describe above link (off white fine substrate like crystal river (caribsea) (but there are cheaper options depending on what is available to you); i would avoid ultra fine substrate like moonlight (caribsea) - as it can cause serious issues.
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You could do something like 2 angels, 1 blue (or electric blue) acara, 4 to 6 keyhole, 2 or 3 (male only) apistogramma like cockatoo, mac, agassizi, and some tetra like black neon, serpae, rosy white fin, ... - avoid cardinals and smaller tetra as the angles will eat them when adults - black neon get a bit larger as adults. Probalby want to avoid pencil fishes if you get angles as they are small. With the tetra you want between 8 and 16 of a species.
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You could consider L204, blue phantom, or bristlenose pleco (i like lemon or super red but there are starlight and a few other interesting colours). You could consider some cory - but do not get everything or you will get too many fishes. WIth cory you need at least 7 some common species are bronze, sterbai, adofos, eques, ... avoid panda as they prefer cooler water - you will want to keep your tank at 78.
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If you have HARD water then reconsider your stocking - there are some interesting central america cichlid that are very easy to keep that do well in harder water.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Infinite choices - first I would check your water type and ensure it is reasonably soft (gh less than 8); then i would do something similar in landscape describe above link (off white fine substrate like crystal river (caribsea) (but there are cheaper options depending on what is available to you); i would avoid ultra fine substrate like moonlight (caribsea) - as it can cause serious issues.

For substrate you could also just take play or pool filter sand, which comes much cheaper than brand stuff.

I'd probably do:
4 Mesonauta (imo better alternative to angels) OR 4 Cleithracara
1-2 Dwarf cichlids (males only)
20 of a species of low-backed tetras (black neons, cardinals, rummynose...) OR 20 pencilfish OR 20 hatchetfish
15 of a species of high-backed tetras (lemons, bleeding hearts, phantoms...)
10-15 Corydoras OR 1 pleco (up to 10cm) OR 5 smaller Rineloricaria

In all cases try to prevent breeding by choice of sexes (especially with the catfish). The bigger cichlids still might try, but they usually are not very successful in such a setting and neither Mesonauta nor Cleithracara become terrors during breeding.

If you have HARD water then reconsider your stocking - there are some interesting central america cichlid that are very easy to keep that do well in harder water.
Or take a look towards the Pantanal Region, there are some commonly available and nice Dwarf cichlids and tetras from there. Fish from there can do with medium hard water, shouldn't go too far up. GH 6-8, KH 5-7, pH 7-7.5.
But fish from the Amazon and Orinoco drainage systems are defintiely out if it is really hard.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
You could consider some cory - but do not get everything or you will get too many fishes.
I'd like to emphasize and underline this important advise. Full agreement. Rather leave a species out that cramming more in. I myself would probably go with 3 species and be done. Like a single dwarf cichlid, 1 species of tetra or pencil, one species of catfish. Done.
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
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Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
I only have only a few comments. The Blue Acara (all 3 species that come in under this commercial name) is a small member of the genus Andinacara and has a temperament similar to it larger cousins - like the Green Terror. Fortunately they are small and larger fish are not usually bothered. The same cannot be said for smaller cichlids. I like MacZ's suggestion of using a Mesonauta species with angels. Other alternatives are the larger species of Laetacara or even Satanoperca or similar sized geophagines. IMHO Keyholes are much too shy and timid to be housed with more aggressive species.
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
281
Which is hardly possible from the start. Ever tried sexing angels at the size they are usually sold at?


Yeah... well hard for a single fish to fight with itself. ;)
2 is also a disaster unless it's a pair and they have to be breeding otherwise this isn't better. Especially if they separate at some point. Angels don't form permanent pairs. Can be over between them in the blink of an eye.
5-7 in a 2m tank and the right structure though... no problem at all in my experience. What never really works out are even numbers.
I have six since nov 2020 (2) and feb 2021 4). Tank is 1.6m. No problems YET…
 

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