-
Hello guest! Are you an Apistogramma enthusiast? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's a great place for Apisto enthusiasts to meet online. Once you join you'll be able to post messages, upload pictures of your fish and tanks and have a great time with other Apisto enthusiasts. Sign up today!
Apistogramma viejita II
- Thread starter cardinal
- Start date
- Messages
- 16
- Location
- London
Hi,
There are three (I think) colour morphs of A. viejita which come from slightly different localities and biotopes in the wild. They are the same species, it is just that the different colour morphs are domiant in diferrent localities.
Not sure how much difference it makes to keeping them in an aquarium though.
There are three (I think) colour morphs of A. viejita which come from slightly different localities and biotopes in the wild. They are the same species, it is just that the different colour morphs are domiant in diferrent localities.
Not sure how much difference it makes to keeping them in an aquarium though.
- Messages
- 11,220
- Location
- Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
It seems that Mike's information is a bit dated. Staeck & Linke introduced 3 similar looking forms in 1984 as A. viejita. Although closely related, two of the three are now considered different species, based on genetic studies. "A. viejita Color Form I" is the true A. viejita. The original "A. viejita CF II" (= A. sp. Rotflecken/Red-flecks) is a very colorful form of "A. viejita CF III" (= A. sp. Schwarzkehl/Black-throat). CF II was found in pools for the most part, while CF III was found in streams. The present CF II is not A. sp. Rotflecken/Red-flecks. It is a mix of mostly A. macmasteri, possibly A. viejita (CF I), and the original CF II. It is best to think of it like the domestic colored Swordtail/Helleri fish - a mix of 2 or more species to produce a very colorful fish.
L
Liakern
Guest
Apistogramma Viejita
My lfs has these available atm and im try to find a site for good information on these, hardyness, tank size, tankmates, sensitivity to water parameters, diets sexing, terrortoriess, etc. etc!
you know the basics
My lfs has these available atm and im try to find a site for good information on these, hardyness, tank size, tankmates, sensitivity to water parameters, diets sexing, terrortoriess, etc. etc!
you know the basics
- Messages
- 11,220
- Location
- Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
I suggest you buy a good book on the subject, like Römer's or Koslowski's. Read what's here in the search section. Most is valid - more so than on some other web sites.
- Messages
- 16
- Location
- London
I'm a bit confused here - I'm not doubting the aquatic knowledge of either Mike Wise or other published experts, I just believe that the word "species" is often innappropriately used.
This doesn't apply only to this specific example of the different viejita colour morphs but perhaps more widely throughout the practice of keeping and classifying fish.
Two definitions of a species:-
a group of organisms that share similar characteristics and can interbreed with one another to produce fertile offspring.
groups of animals or plants having common characteristics and able to breed together to produce fertile (capable of reproducing) offspring, so that they ‘maintain’ their ‘separateness’ from other groups.
The key is wether or not the offspring are fertile - there are numerous examples of animals which can interbreed and produce sterile offspring - lions and tigers, horses and donkeys, sheep and goats are three examples that spring to mind. Because the offspring of such crosses are sterile the genetic isolation between the two species is maintained.
If two Apistogramma can breed to produce fertile offspring they are the same species regardless of any other factors such as colour, locale, biotope etc. I do not know if the different viejita colour forms can produce fertile offspring, perhaps someone can confirm, but if they can, they are the same species.
Throw macmasteri into the mix as well - now it's getting complicated.
I acknowledge that this is a bit off-topic as it doesn't really help cardinal, and even if the 3 viejita colour forms and macmasteri are strictly the same species, they may still need different care, but would be interested in your thoughts.
This doesn't apply only to this specific example of the different viejita colour morphs but perhaps more widely throughout the practice of keeping and classifying fish.
Two definitions of a species:-
a group of organisms that share similar characteristics and can interbreed with one another to produce fertile offspring.
groups of animals or plants having common characteristics and able to breed together to produce fertile (capable of reproducing) offspring, so that they ‘maintain’ their ‘separateness’ from other groups.
The key is wether or not the offspring are fertile - there are numerous examples of animals which can interbreed and produce sterile offspring - lions and tigers, horses and donkeys, sheep and goats are three examples that spring to mind. Because the offspring of such crosses are sterile the genetic isolation between the two species is maintained.
If two Apistogramma can breed to produce fertile offspring they are the same species regardless of any other factors such as colour, locale, biotope etc. I do not know if the different viejita colour forms can produce fertile offspring, perhaps someone can confirm, but if they can, they are the same species.
Throw macmasteri into the mix as well - now it's getting complicated.
I acknowledge that this is a bit off-topic as it doesn't really help cardinal, and even if the 3 viejita colour forms and macmasteri are strictly the same species, they may still need different care, but would be interested in your thoughts.
- Messages
- 18
- Location
- Ottawa, Canada
Different species can breed and produce fertile offspring, such as a wholpin (false killer whale and dolphin). Even different genus can interbreed and sometimes be fertile, such as many African cichlids. Fact is, species is a human term that is often ill equipped to deal, in some cases, with the fluid nature of population genetics.
- Messages
- 230
- Location
- Los Angeles
IMO, of greater importance than the fertility of their offspring is whether two supposed species will reproduce in the presence of suitable mates of their own kind, in an aquarium allowing for reasonable territories. If they will, they are the same (or very closely related) species. If they do not, they are not.
As mseguin pointed out, it is possible to get fertile hybrids out of different genera. If we go by the fertile hybrid theory, just asn one example, there is no difference between mbuna and peacocks from Malawi.
As mseguin pointed out, it is possible to get fertile hybrids out of different genera. If we go by the fertile hybrid theory, just asn one example, there is no difference between mbuna and peacocks from Malawi.
- Messages
- 577
- Location
- Nottingham, UK
It is far more important to consider whether they would be able to interbreed in the wild. Geographic isolation will cause genetic differences to occur that may, or may not, lead to speciation. We deal with small fish that really don't seem to move too far so different populations can develop in the same watershed that, if they are sufficiently isolated from another population's genetic pool, may (should?) be classified as a separate species. This one reason is why i feel it is vital we keep populations separate in our tanks - unless you are trying to breed a specific aquarium strain perhaps and marketing it clearly as such.
As has been said already in this thread, 'species' is a term WE put on things to help US get our heads around all the different organisms we see. It doesn't work that way in reality. Many of the morphs and regional forms we keep in our tanks are as reproductively isolated from each other as many species, but that doesn't mean that in a tank they might not choose to interbreed.
Fish may not always pick the 'correct partner' over the 'wrong partner' from a 'different species'. They may choose the 'wrong' partner if that female is ripe or that male is a better specimen even if the 'correct' partner is present - remember the fish is just programmed to pick the partner that will help it produce the most successful offspring - a large, healthy male with a huge territory and successful other partners, may present a female of a closely related species with the best deal for her to maximise her reproductive potential. This is one reason why cross-breeding experiments of any form, IMO, are not always a good guide to the validity of a species or form.
Even if ferile offspring are produced they can still represent different species, and stay as such in the wild, if there are selective pressures that mean that the hybrids are unlikely to survive and reproduce successfully. This may be lowered fertility, or just as significantly, a colour pattern that is less cryptic in a certain environment. On the other hand if there is an advantage to the new hybrids they may be successful and replace one, or both parent 'species', forming a new 'species'.
As has been said already in this thread, 'species' is a term WE put on things to help US get our heads around all the different organisms we see. It doesn't work that way in reality. Many of the morphs and regional forms we keep in our tanks are as reproductively isolated from each other as many species, but that doesn't mean that in a tank they might not choose to interbreed.
Fish may not always pick the 'correct partner' over the 'wrong partner' from a 'different species'. They may choose the 'wrong' partner if that female is ripe or that male is a better specimen even if the 'correct' partner is present - remember the fish is just programmed to pick the partner that will help it produce the most successful offspring - a large, healthy male with a huge territory and successful other partners, may present a female of a closely related species with the best deal for her to maximise her reproductive potential. This is one reason why cross-breeding experiments of any form, IMO, are not always a good guide to the validity of a species or form.
Even if ferile offspring are produced they can still represent different species, and stay as such in the wild, if there are selective pressures that mean that the hybrids are unlikely to survive and reproduce successfully. This may be lowered fertility, or just as significantly, a colour pattern that is less cryptic in a certain environment. On the other hand if there is an advantage to the new hybrids they may be successful and replace one, or both parent 'species', forming a new 'species'.
