Apistogramma viejita from Wilhelm in Germany

[peterK]

Hi blueblue

I'd remind you pics of your Viejitas:wink: :biggrin:
http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=3096&highlight=Viejita
http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=4464&highlight=Viejita

Greetings,
Piotr

 

[Genes]

The body of blueblue's male seems different from Wackytpt's male. Blueblue's male seems more broad body and Wackytpt's more elongated. Romer stated that viejita body is slightly elongated. Could this actually be the macmasteri and the true viejita we are seeing here?

 

[peterK]

Hi

Have you read all posts in these topics? I one of them M. Wise have written that Viejita has always round caudal fin.
Wackytpt's male hasn't got this fin shape
So I think wackytpt has Macmasteri, too ^.^

Piotr

 

[Mike Wise]

Wackytpt's fish are the domestic form of "A. viejita" - a cross between A. macmasteri, A. sp. Rotflecken/Red-flecked, & maybe A. viejita.

 

[peterK]

So can we call them A. viejita II?

Wackytpt's fish are the domestic form of "A. viejita" - a cross between A. macmasteri, A. sp. Rotflecken/Red-flecked, & maybe A. viejita.

 

[Genes]

Hi

Have you read all posts in these topics? I one of them M. Wise have written that Viejita has always round caudal fin.
Wackytpt's male hasn't got this fin shape
So I think wackytpt has Macmasteri, too ^.^

Piotr

Have you read Romer's Cichlid Atlas? Mr Romer stated that both males of Macmasteri and Viejita can exhibit similiar truncate or lyrate caudal fin, therefore, is not a reliable distinguishing feature as Viejita also develope a lyrate caudal typical of the macmasteri.

Of course, I could go on with the other distinguishing feature. I am pointing out one that both Mr. Romer and Mr Koslowski agreed upon, and that is Viejita have a more slender and elongated body as compared to the macmasteri.

 

[blueblue]

Hi blueblue

I'd remind you pics of your Viejitas:wink: :biggrin:
http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=3096&highlight=Viejita
http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=4464&highlight=Viejita

Greetings,
Piotr

Thanks Piotr

 

[blueblue]

i got two different specimens in the links that PeterK posted.
Mike's comments are the ones that I am inclined to agree with.

Essentially, the body shape kind of thing could be highly unscientific
and misleading as a fish could be more elongated IF we play some
tricks on the diet and living condiitons. Round tail, on the other hand,
seems to be a quite strong way to differentiate the species. maybe we
have to check the authorized literature (refereed journals listed in
the SCI) to see if people really have some definitions for viejita.

 

[wackytpt]

Wackytpt's fish are the domestic form of "A. viejita" - a cross between A. macmasteri, A. sp. Rotflecken/Red-flecked, & maybe A. viejita.

Hi Mike,

As I am really very new into this hobby.
Could you enlighten me on my apisto.
When I gotten them from HK. The shop specially ordered this from Mr Whelmi.
So is my apisto A viejita or A macmasteri?
I have seen blue blue A viejita from Whelmi, it looks very different from mine.
His apisto body is more round compared to mine which is more long.

I am confused with the Type I, II and III vijetia.

Sorry for asking such a simple question. I am trying to learn more about there fishes

 

[peterK]

Have you read Romer's Cichlid Atlas?

I'm waiting for my CA2 now

Piotr>>>

 

[Genes]

I'm waiting for my CA2 now

Piotr>>>

Likewise. :biggrin:

 

[peterK]

Likewise. :biggrin:

:biggrin: :biggrin:

Essentially, if you ask me to comment on the F1's performance, my observation is:

Eliza F1 > viejita F1 >>> hongsloi F1 (all from wilhelm)

Eliza's F1 is good and i manage to get some F1s which are
as good as their parents

viejita's F1 is not too bad but i just don't feel the same
as wilhelm's. hongsloi's F1s are always unsatisfactory...
there must be some tricks in enhancing the colour for
hongsloi that we do not know.

What about Flash Red Aggies from Mr Wilhelm?

Piotr>>>

 

[blueblue]

:biggrin: :biggrin:


What about Flash Red Aggies from Mr Wilhelm?

Piotr>>>

This one's F1 can be 99% similar to the parents!!
Essentially, the majority of this species that are selling in Hong Kong
are NOT from Mr. Wilhelm, but are from local breeders
and fishfarms...

 

[Mike Wise]

OK here is the long story about A. viejita & its relatives.

Kullander described 2 similar species in 1979: A. macmasteri & A. viejita. The two species (wild specimens have been shown to be not only morphologically different, but genetically, too) are from the headwaters of two different systems entering the Río Orinoco. Based on life colors descriptions in the original description, the A. macmasteri holotype is very similar to the yellow Mac (A120) & A. viejita is A123. A more colorful form of A. macmasteri had been imported in the late 60s & 70s under names like "A. ornatipinnis" (mis-ID), and Canoga Park, among others. This colorful wild form is now called "Rotrücken/Red-shoulder Mac". A. viejita was also imported, but the more colorful Red-shoulder Mac was more popular. Hobbyists & collectors also imported another macmasteri-like species from the same general area: A. sp. Schwarzkehl/Black-throat. Like A. macmasteri it came in two different color morphs (we think, but they might be different species): the plain Black-throat (A124) and the much more colorful A. sp. Rotflecken/Red-flecked (A125). These two are now known to be genetically different from A. viejita, but they were not at the time when Linke & Staeck published the first edition of "Amerikanische Cichliden I: Kleine Buntbarsche" (1984). In their book, Linke & Staeck considered them different color morphs of one species, A. viejita. We now know that A. viejita (holotype form) is A. viejita Color Form I, A. sp. Rotflecken/Red-flecked is "A. viejita" CF II, and A. sp. Schwarzkehl/Black-throat is "A. viejita" CF III.

We had 4 different forms/species whose females were very similar. They were often mixed in shipments and crossed in the hobby. Many breeders used Red-shoulder Macs & CF IIs to add color to make a more colorful strain of the original crosses & wild forms - similar to crossing Xiphophorus variatus, X. maculatus, & X. helleri to make colorful strains of Platies & Swordtails/Helleris. Over the years the red has been emphasized to the extent that macmasteri & Red-flecked patterns have been joined in varying amounts. The same is true for the shape of the tail fin & depth of the body. Now, the highly colorful strains of "A. macmasteri" & "A. viejita" cannot be separated by any real definition.

For me only wild caught & line bred specimens of wild caught A. macmasteri & A. viejita have the right to be called by these names. All color enhanced (by breeding) forms are mixes of 2 - 4 different forms. I see nothing wrong with offering these strain any more than I do the colorful livebears. Just understand that they are not the species they claim to be.

 

[efan]

Great explanation, thanks Mike

 

[rhinoman]

I'm making up "fish profiles" for my personal use. I just replaced the pictures I had of A. Viejita with the two you posted. All I can say is wow! Beautiful fish!