Apistogramma piaroa A165 not doing well

[Epos7]

I have a 22 gallon long with some tetras. It's been running for 18 months, and for the last 15 I had an agassizii, which passed away a couple months ago.

I got a pairoa to replace him, and the pairoa arrived on Tuesday. He came shipped overnight and the heat pack was still warm. He seemed healthy and had lots of energy. For the first couple days he spent most of his time hanging out under pieces of wood - exactly as you'd expect an apisto to do.

Today I found him lying on his side at the front of the tank. He's still alive, but obviously not doing well. I don't see any obvious signs of ill health. Anything I can/should do to help him?

Tank params: temp 78F/25.5C, TDS: 170, pH ~5.5

 

[Epos7]

For now I did a 25% water change and made a little enclosure around him to keep the tetras from bothering him. They don't seem to be, but hopefully this helps him feel a little more secure.

 

[Epos7]

He's righted himself and is moving around a bit more.

 

[anewbie]

I presume this is a wc blackwater fish and your water is way hard.

 

[Epos7]

I presume this is a wc blackwater fish and your water is way hard.

It is WC but I have soft water. I use RO water and remineralize. KH 0 GH 6.

 

[MacZ]

The water these fish come from has zero resdings for KH and GH, usually a EC below 20microS/cm. So your water is not soft in terms of fishkeeping. That said, if it has 6° GH EC is firmly over 300.

But it's not the water itself, but what lives in harder water. These fish are highly vulnerable to bacterial infections and even opportunistic bacteria can bring them down easily. A pathogen that is merely a weak cold to us could kill someone from an uncontacted tribe within days.

You could try a 75% waterchange with 100% RO and no remineralization but instead with humic substances from cattapa leaves and alder cones. It's not a remedy, but it could be enough to help the fishes innune system.

Otherwise it looks a lot like the beginning of sudden death syndrome (we should find a good name for this phenomenon...), a typical problem in dwarf cichlid health.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I use RO water and remineralize. KH 0 GH 6.

Is there a reason for having that much dGH?

The water these fish come from has zero resdings for KH and GH, usually a EC below 20microS/cm. So your water is not soft in terms of fishkeeping. That said, if it has 6° GH EC is firmly over 300 ..............

What @MacZ says.

cheers Darrel

 

[Epos7]

Is there a reason for having that much dGH?

A number of sources indicated aquatic plants like dGH in the 5-7 range. I use the same water in my other tank which has some WC parotocinclus and an apistogramma abacaxis. Those fish seem to do well. I initially was keeping it around 3, but my plants didn't look completely healthy, so I raised it a bit about a year ago. Honestly, there hasn't been much change in the plants so I could go lower.

 

[Epos7]

I have plenty of almond leaves on hand. He's still hanging in there so I'm going to try the suggested water change with RO only to bring the TDS down. Then I'll plop some almond leaves in there.

 

[anewbie]

A number of sources indicated aquatic plants like dGH in the 5-7 range. I use the same water in my other tank which has some WC parotocinclus and an apistogramma abacaxis. Those fish seem to do well. I initially was keeping it around 3, but my plants didn't look completely healthy, so I raised it a bit about a year ago. Honestly, there hasn't been much change in the plants so I could go lower.

Difference species have different tolerance; the plants might like hard water but the fish might not.

 

[MacZ]

I'm stressing it again: It's not the water itself it's the pathogen density

 

[anewbie]

I'm stressing it again: It's not the water itself it's the pathogen density

But does the water being harder not contribute to the pathogen density? (this is a question).

 

[Epos7]

I'm stressing it again: It's not the water itself it's the pathogen density

Are there any medications I should try, or would it be best to just keep doing daily water changes? Alternatively, I could move him to a hospital tank with some completely fresh water.

 

[anewbie]

Are there any medications I should try, or would it be best to just keep doing daily water changes? Alternatively, I could move him to a hospital tank with some completely fresh water.

If you had a 10 - i would fill it with ro water; throw in a bunch of cappla leaves (or similar) wait a day and then move the fish. This presume you have a to keep the water appropriate warm and a mature sponge filter.

 

[Epos7]

But does the water being harder not contribute to the pathogen density? (this is a question).

I'm curious about this too. My guess would be that dissolved solids have little to no effect on pathogen density. Pathogens thrive when there is a high density of fish. Blackwater environments have low levels of nutrients, thus low fish density. Thus, they would have lower pathogen density just by nature of there being fewer fish. Just my best guess though.

 

[Epos7]

If you had a 10 - i would fill it with ro water; throw in a bunch of cappla leaves (or similar) wait a day and then move the fish. This presume you have a to keep the water appropriate warm and a mature sponge filter.

I have a 6 gallon that's been running with a sponge filter and just plants for a few months. I could drain that, refill it with just RO.

 

[MacZ]

But does the water being harder not contribute to the pathogen density? (this is a question).

Yes, but you both treat it like there is something caused by the water. If not it might just be my perception. The fish obviously has already a problem with an infection, anything one can do now is make it easier for it. Lowering EC and pH is hopefully making it easier for the fish, but it will by no means be a cure.

That said, there is no cure. One can only optimize holding conditions on every level and hope it makes it.

I'm curious about this too. My guess would be that dissolved solids have little to no effect on pathogen density. Pathogens thrive when there is a high density of fish. Blackwater environments have low levels of nutrients, thus low fish density. Thus, they would have lower pathogen density just by nature of there being fewer fish. Just my best guess though.

Close. Low nutrient levels also means low pathogen counts. It's by no means the low density of fish, which is not that low actually. Additionally in true blackwater the pH is below 5 which is an additional point: Many bacteria don't do well in a 4.3pH. Mombined with s lack of nutrients makes for quite clean water.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

A number of sources indicated aquatic plants like dGH in the 5-7 range.

You don't need that much dGH, a lot of plants will get by on "petrol fumes".

Have a look at the "Duckweed Index", it is a technique for adding nutrients when the plants need them, rather than by rote.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Epos7]

Update: he didn't make it. Not surprising. Thanks for the help regardless.

 

[MacZ]

Shame, but somewhat expectable. I didn't want to keep up too much hope.