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Long Flat Tube-Like Poop Coming Out of Cacatuoides Anus

dajusticeking

New Member
Messages
9
Location
Baton Rouge, LA, US
This morning I noticed my Cacatuoides male has some sort of white flattened tube coming out of his anus. It looks really wide and flat to be normal poop, and there is a red section near the top. It has been on him for the last 3-4 hours, and I’m not sure if it has grown or not. He has been really stressed all morning, and he is moving between this hiding spot and another once an hour or so. He pecked at some food but I haven’t seen him eat a lot. I may be overreacting, but it is very worrying. What could it be and what can I do to treat it? He is as of now still in the community tank, since my quarantine tank already has fish in it (imports, unrelated)
 

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MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,581
Location
Germany

Pleaee fill out the template, easier than asking questions one at a time.
 

dajusticeking

New Member
Messages
9
Location
Baton Rouge, LA, US
Which animal is affected? Species, sex, age? A. Cacatuoides, male, I’ve had for around 8 months.

What are the symptoms? White, flat tube-like poop with red base. About 2-3 inches length. Inflamed anus. Stressed and hiding, not eating much, lethargic?

How long has the problem been going on? 5 hours, morning of 12/6/2024.

What's the full stocking list? Apisto, 2 gouramis, 6 rummynose tetras, 3 otocinclus, 12 amano shrimp, 5 neon tetras

Any changes in the behaviour of the other fish? Nothing noteworthy.

What size is the tank? standard 20 gallon long, 30x13x12 in3

How long is the tank running? Over a year

Have there been any changes in the past 2 months? New animals, plants, decoration? No, removed neon tetras a few days ago to act as dither fish for quarantine tank (unrelated)

What food are the fish fed? How much, how often? See medication section.

What is the temperature? 78 F

What are the water parameters?
pH: 8.2-8.4
GH:?
KH:?
EC/TDS:?
NO3:<10
NO2:0
NH3/4:0

What test kit did you use?
API Master kit

Are you using water conditioners or any other additives? Dechlorinator when doing water changes.

What filter are you using? Fluval HOB 30

What's the maintenance regimen? 10-20% water change every 1-2 months. Filter whenever weak output.

Have there been any chemicals used around the tank? (Cleaning agents, room sprays, wall paint, adhesives...) No.

Have there been any pesticides, fungicides or herbicides used around the tank? No.

Are there any unknown animals in the tank? This question makes no sense. Detritus worms, probably seed shrimp.

What has been done already? Nothing yet. Will try to move to quarantine tank if condition worsens.

If so, what meds have been used? API General Cure and API Fin and Body Cure, mixed with gelatin-based food. For the last 3 weeks, all the fish in my tank have been fed this because I was treating a gourami with an unknown gill disease and I wanted to prevent the disease from spreading. First two weeks, I fed a slab once a day. For the latest week, I have fed once every 2-3 days.

See images in parent post.
 
Last edited:

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,581
Location
Germany
Sorry time zones, I presume you live in North America, many here do not.

Anyhow, it looks like a massive prolapse of the intestinal walls. Maybe it was caused by some kind of parasitosis, without a lab this will stay a mystery. I'm a bit torn whether your treatment might have to do something with it. In any case: There is nothing you can do anymore.

Now the really bad news: The food mix you fed did nothing but poison your fish. Comparable to giving humans disinfectants to drink. May I ask where or how you got the idea? If you got that from some source do not trust that source anymore, they don ot know anything about fish physiology.
First of all there are no active ingredients in either of the meds that would help against the problem it was used for when used internally. Most of the stuff goes through without positive effects, you can consider yourself lucky if the Apistogramma isnthe only one getting effects from that.
Secondly the stuff accumulates. You should have done 50% waterchanges every 5-7 days at least as you basically dosed the tank for weeks withe that stuff which usually has to be removed via waterchanges after a few days when used as described on the package. Leaving it in for so lang also breeds parasites and bacteria that are resistant to the used meds.

So in consequence, please euthanise the cichlid and do generous waterchanges for a few days so the system can readjust. In the future only use meds as prescribed or labeled and only for the things they have indication for.

Sorry if that comes across harsh but it is what it is. That fish can't be saved.
 

dajusticeking

New Member
Messages
9
Location
Baton Rouge, LA, US
Sorry time zones, I presume you live in North America, many here do not.

Anyhow, it looks like a massive prolapse of the intestinal walls. Maybe it was caused by some kind of parasitosis, without a lab this will stay a mystery. I'm a bit torn whether your treatment might have to do something with it. In any case: There is nothing you can do anymore.

Now the really bad news: The food mix you fed did nothing but poison your fish. Comparable to giving humans disinfectants to drink. May I ask where or how you got the idea? If you got that from some source do not trust that source anymore, they don ot know anything about fish physiology.
First of all there are no active ingredients in either of the meds that would help against the problem it was used for when used internally. Most of the stuff goes through without positive effects, you can consider yourself lucky if the Apistogramma isnthe only one getting effects from that.
Secondly the stuff accumulates. You should have done 50% waterchanges every 5-7 days at least as you basically dosed the tank for weeks withe that stuff which usually has to be removed via waterchanges after a few days when used as described on the package. Leaving it in for so lang also breeds parasites and bacteria that are resistant to the used meds.

So in consequence, please euthanise the cichlid and do generous waterchanges for a few days so the system can readjust. In the future only use meds as prescribed or labeled and only for the things they have indication for.

Sorry if that comes across harsh but it is what it is. That fish can't be saved.
Thanks for the response. For some reason, I never got a notification for this. The tube fell off a day after I posted originally. I had a pack of Levamisole arrive on the 23rd to treat possible intestinal worms.

Feeding the medication is a legitimate practice. Most public aquariums feed their fish medication rather than putting it in the water. There are also plenty of research papers done on the medications I have which show their effectiveness when ingested as food.

I am also confident it was simply a mucus casing, not severe prolapse. Considering it is now disconnected from his anus, I would imagine missing that much of his intestines would be very rapidly fatal. As of now, he is still alive and active. He is even eating again a bit. His poops are more solid and filled with substance. He still has a slightly sunken belly, but looking at pictures of him from months ago, it seems that he has had that for a while.

My current theory is when I first got him almost a year ago, he potentially had a mild case of some type of intestinal worm. Worms, from what I’ve read, kill large fish much slower than small fish. It could be he acted as an asymptomatic host, and that may be why some of my smaller fish seemed to die much more rapidly. I even had a neon tetra in the quarantine tank suddenly die about a week after I placed him in. (I had them in there to act as dither fish for an import, they were not sick as far as I’m aware) Now, as for why he suddenly started showing symptoms after I fed the medicated food, here’s what I think:

His gut biome might have been keeping the worms in check, keeping them from overtaking his intestines. However, when I fed medication for everything but the worms, that killed the competition. They reproduce, spread, his intestines swell and he loses his appetite, no longer eating the medication.

Note: I am assuming worms based on the slow spread and the higher death rates in smaller fish. The first day I gave the Levamisole, I noticed what seemed to be dead or paralyzed worms in the water column, but I couldn’t confirm if they were Capillaria or something.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,581
Location
Germany
Feeding the medication is a legitimate practice. Most public aquariums feed their fish medication rather than putting it in the water. There are also plenty of research papers done on the medications I have which show their effectiveness when ingested as food.
Not saying feeding medication is generally wrong, just the meds you used were simply meds without indication for the possible problem at hand. Think of putting ointment for your back on your lunch and eat it and thinking it helps.

I'd like to see those papers, please. I'm curious which of the active ingredients they looked at.
Citation is all I need.

The first day I gave the Levamisole, I noticed what seemed to be dead or paralyzed worms in the water column, but I couldn’t confirm if they were Capillaria or something.
That is the typical observation when using Levamisole. Did you remove the worms? Because Levamisole only paralyzes them and lets the fish excrete them. When is the second run due?
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,848
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
As of now, he is still alive and active. He is even eating again a bit. His poops are more solid and filled with substance. He still has a slightly sunken belly, but looking at pictures of him from months ago, it seems that he has had that for a while.
He looks very dark in colour in the first photos, which is rarely a good sign in Apistogramma. How is he looking now?

Also the gravel substrate isn't ideal, Apistogramma will sand sift and gravel doesn't offer that opportunity, additionally food can fall into the crevices and potentially compromise water quality. Have a look at <"https://apistogramma.com/forum/threads/is-this-a-male-or-female.23904/#post-112461">
That is the typical observation when using Levamisole. Did you remove the worms? Because Levamisole only paralyzes them and lets the fish excrete them. When is the second run due?
I'm always really wary of Camallanus with commercially available Apistogramma. It is difficult to quarantine for, because it may take quite a long time ~ 8 weeks for infection to become obvious.

cheers Darrel
 

Mazan

Well-Known Member
Messages
385
Not directly, no, but I do think that fish kept in inappropriate conditions are much more likely to become ill.
 

dajusticeking

New Member
Messages
9
Location
Baton Rouge, LA, US
Not saying feeding medication is generally wrong, just the meds you used were simply meds without indication for the possible problem at hand. Think of putting ointment for your back on your lunch and eat it and thinking it helps.

I'd like to see those papers, please. I'm curious which of the active ingredients they looked at.
Citation is all I need.


That is the typical observation when using Levamisole. Did you remove the worms? Because Levamisole only paralyzes them and lets the fish excrete them. When is the second run due?
Here is a paper on Doxycycline used in Catfish. https://journals.ekb.eg/article_49857_d9f7479f75c5e199e5f9e1424551dc92.pdf

Here is one for feeding Metronidazole to Angelfish to treat Hexamita.

This one is for feeding Praziquantel in Kingfish with gill parasites.

Finally here is one on feeding Levamisole to treat Nematode worms.

These aren’t the only studies I could find. They’re plenty of others I could find on google scholar and other such websites. These were just the first ones to show up. As for whether or not they cancel out when all used together, I’d have to find more research on that, but I’d guess they work fine together since they target completely different organisms through completely different methods. I also know antibiotics specifically can’t be used together, which is why I don’t have a gram positive medication in the food, since it might accidentally neutralize the Doxycycline.

Also, I did remove as many worms as I could see, but I am confident I missed some.
 

Mazan

Well-Known Member
Messages
385
I believe that MacZ was not referring to the method of medicating, which is common practice, but to the medicines used (API General Cure and API Fin and Body Cure) and unknown disease treated?
 

dajusticeking

New Member
Messages
9
Location
Baton Rouge, LA, US
I believe that MacZ was not referring to the method of medicating, which is common practice, but to the medicines used (API General Cure and API Fin and Body Cure).
Ah. The reason was I was unaware what the illness was. The General Cure contains Metronidazole and Praziquantel, and the Fin and Body Cure contains Doxycycline.

The Metro was in case the illness was Hexamita or other internal protozoans.
The Prazi was in case of flatworms.
The Doxy was for internal bacterial infections, which iirc are common secondary infections for Hexamita and worms.

I had no way of knowing which disease it was, so I had to treat for all of them.

If you are instead referring to the part where I was medicating all the fish to prevent the spread of the Gourami's disease:

I used the Prazi for gill flukes and external parasites.
I used the Doxy for bacterial gill disease (a common primary disease as well as a secondary caused by flukes)

I didn't know if the gill disease was bacterial or flukes (I didn't have a microscope at the time). All I knew was he had reddish gills and was a bit lethargic. So, because I'm pretty sure they can be used together, and because bacterial gill disease is a common secondary infection to gill flukes anyway, I treated for both. The Metro wasn't really doing anything for that; it was just because General Cure contains both, and I had no way of separating them. And worst case with Metro is that they get treated for Hexamita if they have it and are asymptomatic, so I considered it a win-win.
 

dajusticeking

New Member
Messages
9
Location
Baton Rouge, LA, US
The pH of the water seems unsuitable for all of the species kept...
Weirdly enough, from what I understand about fish, if they are in PH different from their native waters, they won't want to or are unsuccessful when it comes to breeding. However, not only did my Apistogramma have the desire to breed, but he was able to successfully fertilize the eggs. A lot of them even hatched, but they were quickly eaten by the tetras. I was able to save one, and that baby is still alive months later, again, in the same PH water.

The high PH is just an issue down here in Louisiana. From what I know, A. Cacatuoides is known to be very hardy when it comes to higher PH, at least compared with other Apisto species.

Now, the ability to breed on its own is not a definitive indicator of tolerating PH, but it's an interesting finding nonetheless.
 

Mazan

Well-Known Member
Messages
385
The high PH is just an issue down here in Louisiana. From what I know, A. Cacatuoides is known to be very hardy when it comes to higher PH, at least compared with other Apisto species.
Yes, I believe that is the case, they are found in quite a variety of habitats, though mostly in at least fairly soft water. You are also correct in that many soft water species will not breed, or not successfully, in harder water. But the fact is that soft water fish do tend to be more susceptible to disease, particularly bacterial infections, when kept in harder water.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,581
Location
Germany
Ah. The reason was I was unaware what the illness was. The General Cure contains Metronidazole and Praziquantel, and the Fin and Body Cure contains Doxycycline.
I was not aware they contain these active ingredients, should have looked that up. Typically such broadband meds contain the usual suspects: Malachite Green, Formaldehyde, Methylene Blue, Ethacridine lactate, copper sulphate ... Those indeed would have been a problem when used internally or would have simply not done anything.

The Metro was in case the illness was Hexamita or other internal protozoans.
The Prazi was in case of flatworms.
The Doxy was for internal bacterial infections, which iirc are common secondary infections for Hexamita and worms.
I have to say though... I think one of these ingredients would have been enough. Especially the antibiotics shouldn't be used that generously. A single ingredient preparation with Metronidazole would have covered all the bases. It's effective against protozoans of course, but it's also an antibiotic and has antihemetic properties as well.
It's also usually not Hexamita, but Spironucleus. Doesn't change the therapy or the symptoms.
Interestingly Levamisole can be feed but doesn't have to, as it is resorbed through the gills. Hence it's used a lot once the fish do not eat anymore.

So in conclusion, my bad for not looking up the active ingredients, still risky business.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,581
Location
Germany
From what I know, A. Cacatuoides is known to be very hardy when it comes to higher PH, at least compared with other Apisto species.
The domestic fish have gone through generations of linebreeding and inbreeding and since been copy/pasted for a long time. Their health is generally bad, especially the ones in the mass trade. They don't get old anymore. Less than 1 year after purchase is the norm in my experience.
The water parameters themselves are not the problem, it's the fact that bacteria have better conditions in harder, more alkaline water and a species that is more prone to bacterial infections by nature (i.e. all softwater fish) and the domestic strains additionally immune supressed by genetics from inbreeding make for a very fragile fish in comparison to wild fish and tankbred wild form specimens.
 

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