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Apistogramma Macmasteri advice please

Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
Hello, I’m new here and my reason for joining is I could use some advice on my new macmasteri’s as I’m getting a little worried my female isn’t happy.
I’ve had the pair around 3 months. I took my time observing them at the aquarium store and worked with the staff to make sure i got a good pair. Within the month of adding to my tank they had bred. The female led out around 10-12 fry but there numbers dwindled as the days went by until they were all gone within the week.
Then my male started to get a little bit more bossy with my female. I won’t say he was aggressive, he was being a bit bossy and chasing her into the plants where she’d kept her brood.
Not long after I saw him tail slapping with her and they seemed all loved up again and she then disappeared into the same planted area for a few days, only coming out to eat. I suspected she had laid some more eggs due to this behaviour but she didn’t lead out any fry this time.
The male seemed to be angry with her afterwards.
The same thing appears to have happened this last week and now my poor female has tucked herself inbetween the glass and an Amazon sword plant and she’s hiding out there.
My male appears to be looking for her occasionally before getting distracted by trying to find scraps of food or whatever!

I’ve read that apisto’s live as a harem in the wild and I’m wondering if this is where I’ve gone wrong. Is it a case of I need to add a second female to spread his attention out a little? I don’t want to lose my female but she is looking stressed and I am concerned.

My tank is a Jewel Vision 180. It’s well planted. I have two caves and other natural cave like areas. Would appreciate any advice anyone can give. TIA
 

yukondog

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
664
Location
N.W. Fl.
The male may be ready to breed but the female may not be. Mine I breed one one one, dont know if they need a harem or not. Is this a 180 gal.
 

Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
The male may be ready to breed but the female may not be. Mine I breed one one one, dont know if they need a harem or not. Is this a 180 gal.
Hi yukondog, my tank is the vision 180 which is 180 litres. I have very soft water naturally which is why I’ve kept SA cichlids - although these are my first attempt at apisto’s - I’ve had rams, acara’s, and angels in the past. I’ve been lucky enough to always wind up with a breeding pair. I did some research before getting these apisto’s but it was a bit confusing. Some things I read said just get a pair, other things said they would live as a harem if the tank was large enough.... this tank is around 3ft so I’m looking for advice from others with these fish to help me decide if adding a second female may help or if that will cause fights to break out
thanks :)
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,201
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
A. macmasteri is an apisto that I consider "casually polygamous". This means that males, when they have no other distractions, will breed with multiple females. Otherwise they are normally good with just 1 female. Something in the tank or maintenance of the fish is not conducive for some reason. Since we have no idea of how the tank is set up nor how the apistos are fed it is hard to say what the problem might be.
 

Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
A. macmasteri is an apisto that I consider "casually polygamous". This means that males, when they have no other distractions, will breed with multiple females. Otherwise they are normally good with just 1 female. Something in the tank or maintenance of the fish is not conducive for some reason. Since we have no idea of how the tank is set up nor how the apistos are fed it is hard to say what the problem might be.
Hi, thank you for your reply. In terms of food I am feeding frozen artemia/tubifex/mysis three times a week. I try to mix it up as I’m still figuring out what frozen food they prefer. On the rest of the days they get Vitalis dry food. They usually eat the Cory pellet food which is 70% protein so I‘m hoping their diet has enough protein. I fed my laetacara curviceps and my rams (Bolivian) on the same system and they did well on that.
I recently lost all my dither fish to a mystery illness (harlequin rasboras) they were fed frozen bloodworm and I watched each one die one after another yet my apisto’s and cories all remained well. I threw the bloodworm in the bin anyway and at the moment I’ve no plan to feed it again! I have tetra nemitobrycon palmeri on order at my lfs as replacement. Perhaps replacing the dither fish will calm things down? They should be here next week but I will be quarenteening them first.

i‘m now going to try adding a photo of my tank. As this is my first attempt please bear with me. Technology is not my thing!
 

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Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
Hi, thank you for your reply. In terms of food I am feeding frozen artemia/tubifex/mysis three times a week. I try to mix it up as I’m still figuring out what frozen food they prefer. On the rest of the days they get Vitalis dry food. They usually eat the Cory pellet food which is 70% protein so I‘m hoping their diet has enough protein. I fed my laetacara curviceps and my rams (Bolivian) on the same system and they did well on that.
I recently lost all my dither fish to a mystery illness (harlequin rasboras) they were fed frozen bloodworm and I watched each one die one after another yet my apisto’s and cories all remained well. I threw the bloodworm in the bin anyway and at the moment I’ve no plan to feed it again! I have tetra nemitobrycon palmeri on order at my lfs as replacement. Perhaps replacing the dither fish will calm things down? They should be here next week but I will be quarenteening them first.

i‘m now going to try adding a photo of my tank. As this is my first attempt please bear with me. Technology is not my thing!
I forgot to say, my male appears to be mostly aggressive around food. I’ve had to deliberately aim food into her hiding places because he chases her away if she comes to eat with him. Could this be a clue?
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,201
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Your tank looks better than any of mine. Feeding is fine, except that I would avoid tubifex in any way. The only thing I can say is that apisto are, as a general rule, not very fond of dry food. I imagine, if your macs are like my apistos, ignore most processed food. I personally would switch dry foods to a suppliment to a diet mostly of live or frozen food.

N. palmeri are not good dither fish (I keep N. lacorti now). Males are highly territorial and aggressive fish. I keep mine in a species-only tank.

One other thing. You mention having corys, and I see you have cardinal tetras in the tank photo. This is ok for a community but makes for a very poor breeding tank. Corys bother brooding female and cardinals are the prime apisto fry preditor.
 

Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
Your tank looks better than any of mine. Feeding is fine, except that I would avoid tubifex in any way. The only thing I can say is that apisto are, as a general rule, not very fond of dry food. I imagine, if your macs are like my apistos, ignore most processed food. I personally would switch dry foods to a suppliment to a diet mostly of live or frozen food.

N. palmeri are not good dither fish (I keep N. lacorti now). Males are highly territorial and aggressive fish. I keep mine in a species-only tank.

One other thing. You mention having corys, and I see you have cardinal tetras in the tank photo. This is ok for a community but makes for a very poor breeding tank. Corys bother brooding female and cardinals are the prime apisto fry preditor.
 

Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
Hi again, I only have one remaining cardinal and one harlequin left. The cardinals are well over four years old and have been dropping off one by one for about six months now. Old age has crept up on them. The last remaining harlequin is all that is left from the mystery illness that just killed the harlequins and nothing else. It had both me and the guys at the fish store completely flummoxed! I even took in a dead body for them to see and all we could come up with was something internal. Even though none of my other fish were affected by it I ran a course of internal bacteria treatment and the remaining Harley was all that survived it.
Thank you for your kind words on my tank! This will now be my 5th tank in the 12 years I’ve been keeping fish. I had a four foot Rio 240 before this but I had to move house and it was too big so I had to down sized a little.
My current stock is various cories - similis, melini, panda and what were labelled as blacks but they’re actually dark brown. Probably a morph of bronzes. I have 6 amano shrimps and 3 oto’s and a bristlenose plec. There’s the odd snail aswell that’s come in on the plants!
In regard to the palmeri’s. I’ve kept them before in my four footer and yes, the males were a pita. I ended up with five males and five females. It was war every day. Now I know how to sex them I’d planned on no more than two males - the rest female in the hope there won’t be a war everyday. Your words have me worrying now though but my lfs have ordered them in specially so I‘ll have to go see them and see if it’s too late to back track. I’d ordered them because I was concerned the reason the harley’s died was because the apisto’s were too aggressive for them. I thought the palmeri might be better tank mates being mildly aggro themselves. Hmm ...

So, back on to my original question ... in this situation with a female that’s gone into hiding, a male getting aggro over food would you add a second female or leave things alone and see if he calms down as he matures? They’re both still very very young. They were only about 2-3cm when I got them
 

Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
UPDATE:
tank light have just come on and I’ve found my female dead. I’m pretty upset.
so next question is - will my male be okay on his own?
 

Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
Truly sorry for your loss. Personally I would just keep the male and not add another female. He will be fine without a female. Also with corys, pleco, and an assertive group of tetras like emporers, there is little chance of successful reproduction of the apistos.
Thanks Mike, I’ve been to my lfs today and I’ve currently got a block of foam floating round in my tank that changes colour if there’s anything in there that other water tests don’t pick up. They’re as concerned as I am at the amount of deaths recently. Even though I’m certain my female died of the males bullying I want to be sure before adding the new tetras (which have arrived at the lfs and are staying there for now on reserve)
I was leaning toward keeping the male alone and now you’ve reassured me he’ll be okay without a mate I think that’s the right thing to do. I am genuinely upset though.
I got them with the intention of just enjoying them. I didn’t have any hopes of breeding. I had a what will be, will be attitude. I don’t have the space for lots of fry anyway!
It’s a shame but it is what it is.
Many thanks for you advice and help. Really appreciated :)
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
They’re as concerned as I am at the amount of deaths recently. Even though I’m certain my female died of the males bullying I want to be sure before adding the new tetras (which have arrived at the lfs and are staying there for now on reserve)
Can we have a picture of the tank? and possibly a description of the dead fish?

I think you are right to be concerned about the number of deaths, it definitely sounds like something isn't quite right.

got a block of foam floating round in my tank that changes colour if there’s anything in there that other water tests don’t pick up.
Now that is a new one on me, I'm going to have to say "dubious".

cheers Darrel
 

Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
Hi all,

Can we have a picture of the tank? and possibly a description of the dead fish?

I think you are right to be concerned about the number of deaths, it definitely sounds like something isn't quite right.


Now that is a new one on me, I'm going to have to say "dubious".

cheers Darrel
Hi Darrel, I shared a picture of the tank above, aswell as a picture of the apisto pair.
The deaths were all my harlequins except one. I had a mixture of the ‘lamb chop’ type and gold headed purple (I think they’ve been reclassified as ‘black harlequins’ now. I’ve also lost two of the remaining cardinals I had from a five year old group. I had just three left. Now there’s just the one. In total I lost 19 harley’s, 2 cardinals and my female apisto’s all over about 2-3 week period now.
My water tests perfectly normal, zero ammonia, zero nitrite, ph 6.5-7 zero kh normal reading for nitrate. I always get a reading for phosphate because it’s high in my supply so I run a remover all the time. Temp is 25-26.
The only clue to the deaths was they made a pig of themselves on frozen bloodworm then within an hour they all started huddling in a corner. The following morning four were dead and the rest died within quick succession. The body I took to the lfs had blood in its belly so I treated for internal bacteria. Then everything settled down for over a week. I had the tree cardinals and the one Harley left. Then last week I lost the two cardinals followed by my female apisto’s. I‘m sure that the cardinals died of old age although possibly weakened by what killed the harleys hastened their death. There was no sign of bleeding in the abdomen so I’m going with old age.
There‘s nothing to suggest the female died of the same as the harley’s either. I’m 100% certain the male killed her as he was bullying her before her death. She was trying to hide from him. Something happened overnight while I wasn’t watching them and I suspect he killed her.
I’m having a period of bad luck at the moment. This particular tank has ticked over for almost 5 years with no serious issues or health problems.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I shared a picture of the tank above, aswell as a picture of the apisto pair.
Apologies, both tank and fish look OK at that stage.
I always get a reading for phosphate because it’s high in my supply so I run a remover all the time.
You don't need to, plants need PO4---, it is one of the big three macro-nutrients (N:p:K) and plants are quite efficient at removing it from the water column.
I’m having a period of bad luck at the moment. This particular tank has ticked over for almost 5 years with no serious issues or health problems.
The only clue to the deaths was they made a pig of themselves on frozen bloodworm then within an hour they all started huddling in a corner. The following morning four were dead and the rest died within quick succession.
Unfortunately <"I'd look no further">. I feed live bloodworms that I've ranched myself, but I don' go anywhere near <"commercially collected ones">, live or frozen.

cheers Darrel
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Apologies for the :p, it happens when you don't leave a gap between the colon ":" and the "P" .

cheers Darrel
 

Rycraft

New Member
Messages
25
@Nemesis9 My first attempt with Apistos was with Macmasteri as well and I had the same outcome. Male just bullied the hell out of the female and she sadly died. He was perfectly content on his own. Kept him with Amanos, a few Otos and a school of Ember tetras.

Since then I have acquired a pair of A. Velifera. They were already a confirmed pair at the LFS when I got them so not sure if that's what made the difference. There is never any squabbling and they are both doing great. Lots of spawning behavior but no fry yet, which I'm totally fine with. Just fun to watch them swim around the tank and interact with each other while they hunt for micro fauna.

You're tank looks great and I'm sure the Macmasteri will enjoy it!
 

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Linds6292

Member
Messages
33
I have a pair of Macmasteri. They have had a few broods of fry successfully. My male has been a bully and chased the female. But then she has done the same to him as well. If it gets too bad I just separate them for a while. At the moment they're getting along well and not breeding.
 

Nemesis9

New Member
Messages
15
Thanks guys. At the moment I’ve no intentions of replacing the female. I never got them for breeding purposes anyway. I got a pair because I’d read they were better kept as a pair and all the SA cichlids I’d kept in the past were kept in pairs.
I know bonded pairs can fall out. It happened with my laetacara curviceps pair. They bred regularly for a couple of years and then all of a sudden the female took herself off and wanted nothing more to do with the male. Then she went blind and eventually passed away.
My male apisto seems okay at the moment. He has shown the odd display of stress here and there but I distract him with a tiny pinch of food and he stops ‘pacing’.
I‘ve now tested the hell out of my tank with the help of my lfs and there’s nothing wrong at all. Everything tests perfect and the deaths have stopped. I collect six palmeri tetra (two males, four female so hopefully so wars) and five black harlequins next week provided I have no further deaths in the meantime. I’ll probably add a few more harley’s but I want to just go slow on the re-stocking and I want to see how the tetras go first. Had them before and I know the males fight over the females and territory too. I’m hoping just keeping two boys with two females each will keep thing calm but I’m ready and there’s space for more females if I need to.
Thanks again for the help and support. It’s appreciated :)
 

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