1. Hello guest! Are you an Apistogramma enthusiast? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's a great place for Apisto enthusiasts to meet online. Once you join you'll be able to post messages, upload pictures of your fish and tanks and have a great time with other Apisto enthusiasts. Sign up today!

Apistogramma cf. agassizii "Alenquer"

Discussion in 'Apistogramma' started by briztoon, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. briztoon

    briztoon Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Hey guys,

    A LFS down here has recently got in some Apistogramma cf. agassizii "Alenquer".

    I would be interested in any information members could provide on this species. At this stage I am just going to keep an eye on them in the store. Don't want to jump in to this purchase.
  2. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    9,627
    Likes Received:
    1,241
    Trophy Points:
    113
    For me, this is one of the more spectacular forms of the A. agassizii superspecies. It isn't the type form; it is a Net/Netz form. Males develop amazingly long extensions on the dorsal, anal and caudal fin. It also develops a pine cone-like pattern on the body from black edges on the body scales. These are photos of young males: http://www.rva.ne.jp/zukan/apisto/ap_agassizi_alen.htm. The fins are not fully developed. It is a clearwater species and isn't especially difficult to reproduce.
  3. Apistomaster

    Apistomaster Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    644
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    These are one of my favorites of the A. agassizi forms and one I wish was more well established in the hobby. I had some from a fellow forum member, a beautiful but fairly old pair which I never was able to spawn. Something that isn't unusual for older breeders moved to entirely new environments.
    They were beautiful fish.
    If I saw some in a shop I sure wouldn't take very long to think about buying some while the chance is still there. They will probably sell fast.
  4. briztoon

    briztoon Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Thanks for the link and information Mike. The aggies certainly look like the ones in those photos.

    Larry I have to waite for a new 3 tier stand to be built and delivered, and then buy some new tanks before I can purchase any of these. Though I maybe able to persuade the LFS to hold a pair or two for me.
  5. briztoon

    briztoon Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Well the LFS has four pairs in the tank, but the owner has another 20 at home to bring in as these sell. And I'm pretty sure she will keep a pair aside for me.

    Mike what do you mean by,
    Can you explain why they would be called Alenquer and not Net/Netz.

    I have a really bad photo of one of the males taken today. Lighting on the tank wasn't the best for flashless photography, and I only have a cheap Kodak easyshare digital camera.

    [​IMG]

    The males have a yellow face and throat as you can see in the photo. The blue reflective flecking through the face and cheek varies from male to male. The colour below the lateral line is a very subtle purple, and they are only starting to show the "pine cone" edging to thier scales that Mike mentioned. They have a distinct terminal pattern of the dorsal fin that I have not seen before in other agassizii. The patern on the caudal fin is different above the lateral band to that below the lateral band.

    Females also have a very distinctive red strip along the edge of thier dorsal fins. Even in line bred double red agassizii females I have neet seen such a bright red edge to dorsal fins in agassizii.

    I am going back to the store Tuesday and will try and take some better photos then.
  6. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    9,627
    Likes Received:
    1,241
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What taxonomists presently call the species "A. agassizii" is (in private) actually acknowledged as being a superspecies - a group of species that have very recently speciated from a single species. These species are so closely related that they usually have very few problems with interbreeding. According to Miller & Schliewen's genetic studies and Koslowski's taxonomic studies there are at least 8 distinct forms/species in this superspecies.

    The "type form" is the form/species based on the holotype as described by Steindachner in 1875. The holotype form is found in tributaries along the Amazon from the Río Tigre in Peru to the Rio Negro in Brazil. The Net/Netz form is found in northern tributaries of the lower Amazon from the Rio Negro to at least the Rio Jari.

    Probable the best name for this fish is "A. cf. agassizii Net/Netz (Alenquer)" - a relatively long name. This is why it is usually listed as A. agassizii Alenquer. This population of the Net/Netz form occurs around the town of Alenquer, where many of the Pigeon Blood and Red Discus are collected. It was fairly common in the trade 5 - 10 years ago when wild Pigeon Blood Discus were in high demand. Now it is less commonly available.
  7. briztoon

    briztoon Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Thankyou Mike. That explains everything quite clearly. :)
  8. ed seeley

    ed seeley Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I thought pigeon bloods were captive bred strains developed in Thailand? Are they present in the wild?
  9. Apistomaster

    Apistomaster Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    644
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I'm like Ed, "wild pigeon bloods from Alenquer area" does not compute.
    That a fair number of wild Alenquers have the raw potential to develop a solid red I can go with but Pigeon Bloods as I know them are purely as natural as a Celestial Goldfish. These are Alenquer Discus according to Heiko Bleher.
    [​IMG]
  10. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    9,627
    Likes Received:
    1,241
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, you're right:redface:. I'm certainly not a Discus person. I've only been told that Pigeon Bloods were developed from red Discus from the Alenquer area, among others.
  11. briztoon

    briztoon Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Well I bought a pair two weeks ago. I picked out a smaller, subdominat male from the LFS tank. While he was not quite as colourfull in the LFS tank, he appeared to have good body shape and showed potential to colour up nicely.

    Another forum member took a nice photo of the male the day before the pair was moved to thier own tank. The new tank has a fine white sand substrate rather than the fine river gravel pictured.

    [​IMG]
    Matt H likes this.
  12. steph

    steph New Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    OK I confess - I am totally confused now with all the agassizi variants :eek:

    I too have some of the gorgeous fish that briztoon has, and I cant possibly take a photo as good as the one he has posted here.

    I was assuming because the male's caudal fin has a fairly broad black line that these were a form of BBCS ? however reading other posts here and Mike's article on mtfb (http://www.mtfb.com/MTFBJuly2005/JULY2005pagesIMAGES/105wisearticle2.htm) I am now even more confused. This article doesnt list A. cf. agassizi netz alenquer as a BBCS, also the tail on these fish doesnt completely match the one shown on the article either for this fish.

    Is the definition of BBCS just that or are there other morphological traits included ?

    I have a poor quality pic of my fish here (http://www.discusforums.com/forum/files/agassizi_alenquer_pair_feb_2010_sml.jpg)

    My female also occassionally shows a line of faint black dots on one row of scales below the lateral band, but not so low I would call them abdominal spots/stripe.

    They are beautiful little fish and my main concern with identification is working out what sort of water to keep them in to enable them to breed successfully as some aggassizi forms seem to need very low pH.

    They are currently in 90% rain water / 10% tap water, so its very soft (pH kit has gone walkabout temporarily, but it will be low)

    Any pointers would be great.

    Cheers

    Steph
  13. dw1305

    dw1305 Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,074
    Likes Received:
    496
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Hi all,

    Me too, he is gorgeous, but I wish I had the fish as well as being able to take a photo that good.

    cheers Darrel
  14. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    9,627
    Likes Received:
    1,241
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Steph, I looked at your photo. It definitely shows a male A. cf. agassizii (Netz). It looks like most males from the area around Alenquer, Brazil, too. Compared to the white submarginal caudal band, the outer black seam appears narrower. On the Broad Black Caudal Seam/Edge forms, the white band is noticeably narrower the the outer black seam/edge. This is only one of the distinguishing characteristics of this form. As I wrote in the article:

    Koslowski (2002) described features that were diagnostic for several different populations. Among these are the populations “mit breitem schwarzen Caudalsaum†(with broad black caudal seam). Apistogramma cf. agassizii BBCS (broad black caudal seam) populations are found only in right bank (southern) tributaries of the lower Amazon, like the Rio Tocantin, Xingu, Tapajós, and Madeira. Males of these populations tend to be subtly more elongate (actually, less deep bodied).

    In contrast to other agassizii forms, the BBCS form looks more delicate in shape. The males show less elongated tips on the unpaired fins when compared to other agassizii forms.

    A. cf. agassizii (Netz), by contrast, are robust in body shape and exhibit long tips on the unpaired fins. The males show a net-like pattern on the flanks, which if produced by dark edges on the flank scales. It is similar in appearance to the pattern seen on members of the brevis-group.

    Hope this helps.
  15. steph

    steph New Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Mike as always you are a fount of knowledge and impart it so well. The bit I was missing was the relationship between the black and the white in the caudal fin. What was confusing me was the difference in my other A. agasszi 'tefe' which basically shows no black on the caudal fin (Im at work and going from memory here!)

    The male definately has elongated unpaired fins - I also found another pic on the Martin and Toms site which I would say is a distinct match to the fish we have.

    This is a clearwater species so soft water and a pH of ~6 should be ok?

    Cheers

    Steph
  16. Mike Wise

    Mike Wise Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    9,627
    Likes Received:
    1,241
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, on both counts. It isn't any more difficult to reproduce than typical forms of A. agassizii in the hobby. I never understood why it disappears in the hobby from time to time.
  17. steph

    steph New Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Just a little update, the female had produced a cloud of free swimming fry this evening when I got home. Estimate at least 40 of them - Im not very good at counting fry there could be more!

    I had been suspecting a spawn based on behaviour but of course the spot she was guarding was right at the back of the tank and I couldnt see into it - and I have a rule never to lift pots or move things with my girls.

    I had forgotten how stunning agassizi brood care colours - female is just an amazing shade of yellow.

    Tank is set up with almost pure rainwater with a little bit of ketapang extract added, 20% water changes ~twice a week and mix of micro pellets and live mosquito larvae.

    Im quite excited, as my A agassizi tefe never spawned successfully and I never had the tank space or time to give them the attention that they needed.

    Cheers

    Steph
  18. animalmgc

    animalmgc Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    congrats on the new arrival.keep us posted and pics please
  19. kristina

    kristina New Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    wooo hooo congrats on the spawn steph! I was tempted to grab a pair of these myself but chose the bitaeniata blue that they were offering instead... definitely keep us posted on the progress.

    Kris
  20. Bilbo

    Bilbo Member 5 Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    What a great looking fish.

    Seems like every time you look another agassizi colour form shows up.