Apistogramma Cacatuoides Scale Lesion

[Sowah]

Hi guys, I first noticed the skin lesion from my male A. cacatuoides about 3 weeks ago when he was still in the fry tank, it was a rather tiny dot back then. Since I have noticed him hunting on fries, I moved him to another community tank. After a week, I noticed the lesion has got slightly larger and I moved him to a hospital tank

I asked around while some people told me it's a kind of chronic columnaris and some told me he probably injured himself while hunting for fries. I was advised to add a combination of kanamycin and API furan2 but due to the ban of antibiotics in where I live, the closest I could find was a Nitrofuran class of medication. I dosed him for 3 days according to instruction and didn't seems like there's any improvement.

I read up on API website and it suggested a combination of medications and the shop owner also suggested me to try API melafix, so I dosed him for a week. The lesion didn't improve or worsen after that and I am planning to dose for another week according to the instruction. But I am wondering if anyone has the experience of treating fish lesion, does it look like columnaris and how long does it usually take for the fish to grow the scale back? He was active and eating during the whole treatment but I try not to feed too much, only around every 2-3 days with some frozen bbs.

The first picture was before treatment, second was after 3 days dose of nitrofuran, third was after API melafix. Thank you! Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[FishMonkey]

I live in the UK where you can't find any of the meds people suggest and the meds you can get barely work, seachem paraguard is the best out of a bad bunch imo.

Is your fish eating? (You said he's eating fry) If so firstly drop your nitrate levels as close 0PPM as you can (ultra clean water) them small daily water changes, drop your TDS a little if you have room and feed a good diet of high quality foods, some live food, and real veg for a couple weeks.

Med's really should be a last resort.

 

[Sowah]

I live in the UK where you can't find any of the meds people suggest and the meds you can get barely work, seachem paraguard is the best out of a bad bunch imo.

Is your fish eating? (You said he's eating fry) If so firstly drop your nitrate levels as close 0PPM as you can (ultra clean water) them small daily water changes, drop your TDS a little if you have room and feed a good diet of high quality foods, some live food, and real veg for a couple weeks.

Med's really should be a last resort.

Yes he’s currently in the hospital tank where he is still active and asking for food.
The fries are all normal and healthy, the nitrate level in the fry tank is always minimal because half of the tank was covered with floating plants. does it look like columnaris to you or does it look like he probably hurt himself accidentally?

 

[MacZ]

It does not look like columnaris at all. There is also no such thing as chronic columnaris. Columnaris kills within a week if untreated and there is no chronic form of that disease. As there are no meds available in the EU to treat that without consulting a vet and no vet here treats fish, I would euthanize any case of columnaris on sight. Luckily haven't had a case in decades.

It could very well be an injury in which case I would recommend some extra 50%+ waterchanges, indian almond leaves and alder cones. The rest is just time.

Treating with antibiotics proactively and without a clear diagnosis is the worst thing one can do to their tank. Actually, unless you have to rescue a really rare or expensive fish it's not worth using antibiotics at all. As obvious, the fish hast lost a lot of colour and looks stressed in the pictures during/after treatment.

Maybe this here is a good read for you:
Fishlore: Hold the Antibiotics! Overuse and Resistance in the Aquarium Hobby

Edit: Maybe don't listen to store employees too much, often they a. have no idea what they are doing and b. only want to sell you stuff. As happened in this case.

 

[Sowah]

It does not look like columnaris at all. There is also no such thing as chronic columnaris. Columnaris kills within a week if untreated and there is no chronic form of that disease. As there are no meds available in the EU to treat that without consulting a vet and no vet here treats fish, I would euthanize any case of columnaris on sight. Luckily haven't had a case in decades.

It could very well be an injury in which case I would recommend some extra 50%+ waterchanges, indian almond leaves and alder cones. The rest is just time.

Treating with antibiotics proactively and without a clear diagnosis is the worst thing one can do to their tank. Actually, unless you have to rescue a really rare or expensive fish it's not worth using antibiotics at all. As obvious, the fish hast lost a lot of colour and looks stressed in the pictures during/after treatment.

Maybe this here is a good read for you:
Fishlore: Hold the Antibiotics! Overuse and Resistance in the Aquarium Hobby

Edit: Maybe don't listen to store employees too much, often they a. have no idea what they are doing and b. only want to sell you stuff. As happened in this case.

Thank you very much for your input. I also doubt that it was columnaris. Several people in the facebook group told me it was but several apistogramma breeders/shop owners told me it wasn't. I know the shop wasn't trying to sell me stuff either because they do not sell anything other than apistogramma and plecos, not even fish food or medications.

I understand that it was harmful to give the fish antibiotics or any sort of medications and I had a look on some research paper which says abx could cause internal organ damage but I got a bit desperate because the female died of internal parasites 2 months ago and I didn't want to lose this guy. I read that the API melafix is natural and doesn't contain any medications, I guess I might give for a few more days and move him back to the community tank, hopefully he can slowly recover.

Yes, I feel bad about the fish losing colour because I use a big plastic tub for the hospital tank and I need to net him out for better picture. He usually gets better after a day or so.

 

[MacZ]

Well yes, antibiotics available in many countries for fish are hard on the fishes kidneys and livers and can cause organ failure. I have seen cases where the meds caused the symptom called dropsy in the first place.

API isn't sold in my country, you can only get it via Ebay and Amazon here, but according to their website Melafix is basically tea tree oil. Similar but far more effective active ingredients are in catappa leaves and alder cones and those only cost a fraction.

The aquarists home pharmacy should contain: One med each specifically targeted against ich; nematode and camallanus worms; protozoan internal parasites and gill flukes, as well as IALs and alder cones. Makes 3-4 meds + botanicals. That's all that's necessary.

Keep the fish in the hospital tank for at least another week, clean water, almond leaves and good food. After the antibiotic treatment the immunesystem has to be nursed back to working strength. Antibiotics leave fish often more vulnerable than before. After that move him back and go on doing generous watrerchanges.

 

[FishMonkey]

Was it actually internal parasites that killed your female or was it just a weak fish? If all your other fish are healthy and you can't see parasites in the poop it was probably just bad luck.

API melafix (and the other API one which I forgot its name) is the worst, seriously just avoid it!.. like @MacZ said add IALs or black water extract.

Antibiotic resistance is real! test your water and make sure it's virtually 0PPM nitrate, bring your TDS down slowly if you have really hard water. My tank is like a jungle with floaters too but nitrates still build slowly and that's a 40breeder with 7 fish and a bunch of inverts.

 

[MacZ]

Was it actually internal parasites that killed your female or was it just a weak fish? If all your other fish are healthy and you can't see parasites in the loop it was probably just bad luck.

API melafix (and the other API one which I forgot its name) is the worst, seriously just avoid it!.. like @MacZ said add IALs or black water extract.

Antibiotic resistance is real, test your water and make sure it's virtually 0PPM nitrate, bring your TDS down slowly if you have really hard water. My tank is like a jungle with floaters too but nitrates still build slowly and that's a 40breeder with 7 fish and a bunch of inverts.

Agree except one thing: Nitrates. Nitrates are not a real measurement for waste products in the water. Especially with floaters I have made the experience, they melt with too little nitrates. As I use 2/3 RO for my tank and have a very low stocking density my floating plants melt away often. I can't really keep frogbit alive in my main tank, only in my small plants-only nano cube it works. I have taken to use fertilizers in the main tank in small enough doses so the plants don't melt all the time. One of the downsides of blackwater. If the lack of light doesn't kill the plants it's the lack of nutrients.

 

[FishMonkey]

Agree except one thing: Nitrates. Nitrates are not a real measurement for waste products in the water. Especially with floaters I have made the experience, they melt with too little nitrates. As I use 2/3 RO for my tank and have a very low stocking density my floating plants melt away often. I can't really keep frogbit alive in my main tank, only in my small plants-only nano cube it works. I have taken to use fertilizers in the main tank in small enough doses so the plants don't melt all the time. One of the downsides of blackwater. If the lack of light doesn't kill the plants it's the lack of nutrients.

Yeah definitely go easy on the black water extract if you buy any, a small dose will do the same as IALs but quicker, it's my No. 1 go to if I notice any scuffs or grazes on a fish then it slowly dilutes back to normal during water changes over the next few weeks.

True, 0 nitrate isn't ideal for plants but it will help your fish, I must be lucky because my tap water is 70TDS, 6GH, <1KH. I don't does co2 or macro ferts, and underdose micros ferts yet everything grows great. My only rule of thumb is stick to low tech plants.

But I will stress one main thing again, avoid meds unless you have no other option. I am really sorry to hear about your female, but if your little fella is eating and swimming around happily just let him be, you wouldn't like being dosed up to high heavens for a graze to the knee.

 

[Sowah]

Well yes, antibiotics available in many countries for fish are hard on the fishes kidneys and livers and can cause organ failure. I have seen cases where the meds caused the symptom called dropsy in the first place.

API isn't sold in my country, you can only get it via Ebay and Amazon here, but according to their website Melafix is basically tea tree oil. Similar but far more effective active ingredients are in catappa leaves and alder cones and those only cost a fraction.

The aquarists home pharmacy should contain: One med each specifically targeted against ich; nematode and camallanus worms; protozoan internal parasites and gill flukes, as well as IALs and alder cones. Makes 3-4 meds + botanicals. That's all that's necessary.

Keep the fish in the hospital tank for at least another week, clean water, almond leaves and good food. After the antibiotic treatment the immunesystem has to be nursed back to working strength. Antibiotics leave fish often more vulnerable than before. After that move him back and go on doing generous watrerchanges.

Thank you Mac, I will add a piece of catappa leave for him today. I always have some alder cones and catappa leaves in all of my apistogramma tank for the antifungal effect, blackwater effect and hiding places for the fries.

I'll keep him in the hospital tank for another week then, will give an update before moving him to the original tank.

 

[Sowah]

Was it actually internal parasites that killed your female or was it just a weak fish? If all your other fish are healthy and you can't see parasites in the poop it was probably just bad luck.

API melafix (and the other API one which I forgot its name) is the worst, seriously just avoid it!.. like @MacZ said add IALs or black water extract.

Antibiotic resistance is real! test your water and make sure it's virtually 0PPM nitrate, bring your TDS down slowly if you have really hard water. My tank is like a jungle with floaters too but nitrates still build slowly and that's a 40breeder with 7 fish and a bunch of inverts.

I observed sunken belly and white stringy poo before she died. Some people told me it could be intestinal problem and advised me to try starving her for a couple of days but with no luck. I added a dose of waterlife octozin (which i believe is similar to metronidazole and have no luck in finding protozoan) but she passed away the next day unfortunately. It could be a weaker fish as well because she gave birth to some fries a month ago and somehow she's still protecting them.

I feel bad using abx as well because I used to work as a pharmacist but I always use it as last resort. The water is 0 ppm nitrate and dGH is around 4-6 so i guess the water is quite soft. This is from the test strip so there could be slight variation. I don't have anything to measure TDS at the moment, will try to get one of those electronic metre later.

 

[Sowah]

Yeah definitely go easy on the black water extract if you buy any, a small dose will do the same as IALs but quicker, it's my No. 1 go to if I notice any scuffs or grazes on a fish then it slowly dilutes back to normal during water changes over the next few weeks.

True, 0 nitrate isn't ideal for plants but it will help your fish, I must be lucky because my tap water is 70TDS, 6GH, <1KH. I don't does co2 or macro ferts, and underdose micros ferts yet everything grows great. My only rule of thumb is stick to low tech plants.

But I will stress one main thing again, avoid meds unless you have no other option. I am really sorry to hear about your female, but if your little fella is eating and swimming around happily just let him be, you wouldn't like being dosed up to high heavens for a graze to the knee.

I read bad things about blackwater extract because it could lower your pH too quick which can be detrimental to fish. So i normally stick with botanicals.
I found some JBL tormec active peat pellets recently, I am thinking of giving it a go. Anyone has the experience of using this

 

[FishMonkey]

I read bad things about blackwater extract because it could lower your pH too quick which can be detrimental to fish. So i normally stick with botanicals.
I found some JBL tormec active peat pellets recently, I am thinking of giving it a go. Anyone has the experience of using this

Peat will release a lot of tannins, unless your going for black water I don't recommend it. If you're worried about lowering your pH too fast stick to IALs, ect but in my experience you have to add a lot of tannins (very dark water) to do anything drastic to the ph. When I use blackwater extract I double dose and it doesn't make the water that dark but then I have good lighting and my tank in a very lit room with lots of windows.

 

[MacZ]

Yeah definitely go easy on the black water extract if you buy any, a small dose will do the same as IALs but quicker, it's my No. 1 go to if I notice any scuffs or grazes on a fish then it slowly dilutes back to normal during water changes over the next few weeks.

I like the tint rather strong, my fish seem less stressed with it, so I usually do a strong extract from alder cones and maybe a cap or two of peat extract. Plus a handfull of oak leaves. IALs are only for emergencies and when my supply of leaves from the woods is almost at zero in late summer. Generally: Whenever one is able to collect leaves personally, do it.

True, 0 nitrate isn't ideal for plants but it will help your fish, I must be lucky because my tap water is 70TDS, 6GH, <1KH. I don't does co2 or macro ferts, and underdose micros ferts yet everything grows great. My only rule of thumb is stick to low tech plants.

Agree.
I got TDS of 65, EC is at 120 µSi/cm, GH < 3°, KH ~ 0°. Plants: Hydrocotyle, Pothos, Salvinia, Limnobium and some Riccia. I have no plants in the substrate, almost all is within the upper 3rd under the surface or emersed. No CO2 except from the air, which all plants have access to. The tap I mix the RO with is very low in iron, potassium and phosphates from the start but has some Nitrates, it's about 4ml of a full spectrum macro and micro fertilizer per week. Turned out to be the perfect ratio without messing with my parameters.

read bad things about blackwater extract because it could lower your pH too quick which can be detrimental to fish. So i normally stick with botanicals.

It doesn't lower pH. I tried and tested the products by Tetra, Sera, Dennerle, JBL, Amtra and EasyLife. The only one that significantly lowered the pH was the Amtra Oak Extract, due to added diluted hydrochloric acid. All the others only have a pH of 5 at best, so they are quite mild and even with my KH of 0 they don't change the pH. I prefer the extract by tetra as it has the best colouring properties, which is basically my only reason to use it. Botanicals don't get me where I want it to be.

And peat is out for me, I have problems with the stuff being not sustainably sourced and I don't breed, so the pH doesn't have to be that low. I keep it between 6.0 and 6.5 for some months now, usually closer to 6.0. Absolutely sufficient when there are neither eggs to hatch nor fry to raise.

A little sidenote: Tannins are just the "colouring agent" in botanicals and extracts. The actual pH-lowering agents are humic, fulvic, tannic and a few dozen other weak, botanical acids. While there are quite some of them in the botanicals when we add them, most of these acids are only produced during composition. So leave it all in until it's mulm. Mulm is great.

Also, about peat lowering pH: That stuff can be really strong. When the KH is suffciently low (which it should for blackwater), the peat strong enough and the amount big enough, it can lower the pH up to 3 pH points. Peat is also the go-to for the extremophile species to keep, breed and raise. I'm talking 4-5 pH range.

 

[Sowah]

I like the tint rather strong, my fish seem less stressed with it, so I usually do a strong extract from alder cones and maybe a cap or two of peat extract. Plus a handfull of oak leaves. IALs are only for emergencies and when my supply of leaves from the woods is almost at zero in late summer. Generally: Whenever one is able to collect leaves personally, do it.


Agree.
I got TDS of 65, EC is at 120 µSi/cm, GH < 3°, KH ~ 0°. Plants: Hydrocotyle, Pothos, Salvinia, Limnobium and some Riccia. I have no plants in the substrate, almost all is within the upper 3rd under the surface or emersed. No 7CO2 except from the air, which all plants have access to. The tap I mix the RO with is very low in iron, potassium and phosphates from the start but has some Nitrates, it's about 4ml of a full spectrum macro and micro fertilizer per week. Turned out to be the perfect ratio without messing with my parameters.



It doesn't lower pH. I tried and tested the products by Tetra, Sera, Dennerle, JBL, Amtra and EasyLife. The only one that significantly lowered the pH was the Amtra Oak Extract, due to added diluted hydrochloric acid. All the others only have a pH of 5 at best, so they are quite mild and even with my KH of 0 they don't change the pH. I prefer the extract by tetra as it has the best colouring properties, which is basically my only reason to use it. Botanicals don't get me where I want it to be.

And peat is out for me, I have problems with the stuff being not sustainably sourced and I don't breed, so the pH doesn't have to be that low. I keep it between 6.0 and 6.5 for some months now, usually closer to 6.0. Absolutely sufficient when there are neither eggs to hatch nor fry to raise.

A little sidenote: Tannins are just the "colouring agent" in botanicals and extracts. The actual pH-lowering agents are humic, fulvic, tannic and a few dozen other weak, botanical acids. While there are quite some of them in the botanicals when we add them, most of these acids are only produced during composition. So leave it all in until it's mulm. Mulm is great.

Also, about peat lowering pH: That stuff can be really strong. When the KH is suffciently low (which it should for blackwater), the peat strong enough and the amount big enough, it can lower the pH up to 3 pH points. Peat is also the go-to for the extremophile species to keep, breed and raise. I'm talking 4-5 pH range.

What does mulm mean, I have never heard of the word. By googling, it sounds like the decomposed botanicals, fish food, fish poo, etc. in the substrate?

In fact currently I am only using tap water and my pH is around 6.5-7, GH, KH around 4. I would like to lower it to around pH 6 because I am looking to get some nannostomus rubrocaudatus or eques and I believe they would breed and live better in that condition. I like seeing the tannins in my water so I'm still looking for a safe way to lower it, be it botanicals, blackwater extract or peat. Yea, I am afraid that a drastic change of the pH would harm my fish so I am still a bit hesitated to use peat or the extract at the moment. From what you said, I might give the tetra extract a go.

 

[Sowah]

Peat will release a lot of tannins, unless your going for black water I don't recommend it. If you're worried about lowering your pH too fast stick to IALs, ect but in my experience you have to add a lot of tannins (very dark water) to do anything drastic to the ph. When I use blackwater extract I double dose and it doesn't make the water that dark but then I have good lighting and my tank in a very lit room with lots of windows.

I am actually trying to go for the blackwater look but not to lower my pH too fast. I might try to add a bit more IAL and alder cones in this case. Which brand of blackwater extract do you recommend, I'll look into it.

 

[MacZ]

Mulm is a layer of detritus on top of the substrate. Over time all the dead plant material just incorporates any waste. There is a lot of beneficial microorganisms in it. That helps stabilize the tank.

For slow and safe pH-lowering: RO water to bring down the KH to zero and botanicals. Plus side: That way the pH cannot crash. Downside: You will be dependent on the RO unit and effectively the pH only drops by 0.3-0.5 points PER MONTH.
It comes to a halt at about 6.2 pH.

 

[MacZ]

because I am looking to get some nannostomus rubrocaudatus or eques and I believe they would breed and live better in that condition.

Can't say anything about the rubrocaudatus, but my eques spawned since day one in my paramaters, but in my set up eggs and fry are unlikely to survive.

 

[FishMonkey]

I am actually trying to go for the blackwater look but not to lower my pH too fast. I might try to add a bit more IAL and alder cones in this case. Which brand of blackwater extract do you recommend, I'll look into it.

Ista Premium Black Water Extract currently because it was the cheapest I could find at the time, I can't imagine there's much difference between brands.

 

[Sowah]

I

Mulm is a layer of detritus on top of the substrate. Over time all the dead plant material just incorporates any waste. There is a lot of beneficial microorganisms in it. That helps stabilize the tank.
View attachment 10308

View attachment 10309

For slow and safe pH-lowering: RO water to bring down the KH to zero and botanicals. Plus side: That way the pH cannot crash. Downside: You will be dependent on the RO unit and effectively the pH only drops by 0.3-0.5 points PER MONTH.
It comes to a halt at about 6.2 pH.

Thanks for the info. I’ll looking into the RO water. 6.2pH is good for me, only that the RO system is quite water wasting and pricey