Apisto pigmentation

[jmo]

Hello,

I recently received a pair of WC cacatuoides. The female lacks dark pigmentation. You can faintly see the characteristic of a cacatuoides.

Looks pretty unique and interesting. Kind of reminds me of a piebald animal.

Not sure if this lack of pigmentation is of any concern.

 

[MacZ]

Kind of reminds me of a piebald animal.

Correct assumption. It's a pigment disorder.

Not sure if this lack of pigmentation is of any concern.

Maybe. In case your fish spawn and you give them away you might introduce this to the genepool of the captive population. As there are still higher survival rates in captivity than in the wild this might then show up more often. I don't know how exactly this could impact future aquarium stock but it kinda gives me the shivers.

 

[jmo]

Correct assumption. It's a pigment disorder.


Maybe. In case your fish spawn and you give them away you might introduce this to the genepool of the captive population. As there are still higher survival rates in captivity than in the wild this might then show up more often. I don't know how exactly this could impact future aquarium stock but it kinda gives me the shivers.

You make a great point. I do have WC Peru females that I can cross with this male.

 

[Mike Wise]

Your fish actually has what is called a black spot syndrome caused by a parasite. Fortunately it is not fatal for the fish and is not transmitted to other fish in your tank. The parasite needs a second host, a bird to eat the fish, before it can reproduce, be released in water in the bird's droppings and infect other fish. This parasite is not uncommon in Peruvian fish, especially eartheaters like apistos. My original A. sp. (aff. luelingi) "Cristal" had this parasite. They lived long healthy lives and produced many offspring. None of the offspring showed the black spots.

 

[MacZ]

Interesting, I would have rather put my money on similar genes that produce OB and white specimens in Mbuna, central american Heroini and bigger Geophagus species.
Thanks for the information.

But does the parasite really explain the otherwise lack of pigments? Could it be both?

 

[jmo]

Interesting, I would have rather put my money on similar genes that produce OB and white specimens in Mbuna, central american Heroini and bigger Geophagus species.
Thanks for the information.

But does the parasite really explain the otherwise lack of pigments? Could it be both?

I was wondering the same. I did noticed a black spot which has blue iridescent coming through.

Was able to take a picture of the female flaring with it's neighbor. Pigmentation is better than before but still unusual.

 

[jmo]

Did an experiment with two of my WC Peru females to see if the female's pigmentation would darken with other females around.

Yellow color intensified except the black pigment.

 

[Hanzle]

Het vlekkenpatroon is jammer. Heb dat regelmatig op Wildvang appistoos. Niet allen. Laatst een groep v 8 bitineatas gekocht n 2 hadden het. Groep v 6 aggasizies n 4 hadden het. Het is jammer maar verder heeft het geen invloed gehad op het welzijn van de vissen

 

[anewbie]

Your fish actually has what is called a black spot syndrome caused by a parasite. Fortunately it is not fatal for the fish and is not transmitted to other fish in your tank. The parasite needs a second host, a bird to eat the fish, before it can reproduce, be released in water in the bird's droppings and infect other fish. This parasite is not uncommon in Peruvian fish, especially eartheaters like apistos. My original A. sp. (aff. luelingi) "Cristal" had this parasite. They lived long healthy lives and produced many offspring. None of the offspring showed the black spots.
View attachment 14616

Well this is good to know i have several wc apisto with lots of black spots but the 2nd generation never had it - didn't realize it was the cause of a parasite.

 

[Mike Wise]

If this was truly a genetic variation, one would expect to see some of the offspring show it, too. I know of no reports of the black spots appearing on offspring.

 

[Hanzle]

Alleen wildvang......de F1 nakomelingen hadden het geen v allen. Heb het op hyphessobrycon/hemigrammus ook ooit gezien maar zelden.

 

[MacZ]

@ Mike: I'm not talking about the black spots. The rest of the fish seemed lacking in pigmentation. But now that the latest pictures show the fish having pigmentation after all, the question is irrelevant.

 

[Hanzle]

Blijf toch zeer vervelend dat de tekst steeds verandert als het naar een andere taal gaat. veelvoorkomend weet je wel wat r betekent wordt maar soms is het misleidend.....let op...gaat met dit bericht ook gebeuren
Ps: vorig bericht van mij schreef ik nageslacht en dat werdt verandert in inheems

 

[Hanzle]

Zie je

 

[Hanzle]

Veel voorkomen = vaak
Betekend=bedoelt

 

[Hanzle]

Misschien schrijf ik mijn tekst liever in het Engels
Vielleicht schreibe ich besser meine nachrichten in Deutsch

 

[Bob Dixon]

Correct assumption. It's a pigment disorder.


Maybe. In case your fish spawn and you give them away you might introduce this to the genepool of the captive population. As there are still higher survival rates in captivity than in the wild this might then show up more often. I don't know how exactly this could impact future aquarium stock but it kinda gives me the shivers.

It might be worth breeding a few generations to see if it can become a fixed color morph. That's how all the other variants enter the hobby. You need to keep the group separate, though.

 

[MacZ]

Misschien schrijf ik mijn tekst liever in het Engels
Vielleicht schreibe ich besser meine nachrichten in Deutsch

Heel veel sorry! Het was niet mijn bedoeling om je te negeren. Ik kann een beetje nederlands begrijpen, maar het is niet genoeg voor een echte technische discussie, en ik kan niet altijt woorden aan het telefoon vertalen. Voor het forum Engels is zeker het beste.

It might be worth breeding a few generations to see if it can become a fixed color morph. That's how all the other variants enter the hobby. You need to keep the group separate, though.

I wouldn't, tbh. Never liked crossing in OB, albino or xanthochromatic specimens in normal coloured breeding groups of my Mbuna back in the day. If this fish here was indeed one of those I'd not let it breed and keep it separate.

 

[Hanzle]

@MacZ
Geen kwaad gedaan... een groot probleem.
Zou mooi zijn als we een taal voor het forum vinden waarin iedereen zich kan verwoorden

 

[Tom C]

Your fish actually has what is called a black spot syndrome caused by a parasite. Fortunately it is not fatal for the fish and is not transmitted to other fish in your tank.

I doubt that the black blotches we see in Peruvian apistos is the same as the well known Black spot disease (which is typically caused by the larvae of parasitic digenetic flukes Cercaria and Metacercaria).
The black spots that you can see, and feel if you rub your hand over them, are small cysts in the fish's skin. The Peruvian apistos' black areas don't look or feel like small cysts, to me.

A scientist involved in Peruvian apistos told me that they consider the black spots as a still not fully understood phenomenon, and that the "disease" may have a genetic background in Peruvian fish. All western tributaries of the Ucayali/Amazon system in Peru are contaminated with mutagene cyclic aromates deriving from massive oilspills near the border to Ecuador, and researchers have found black spotted fish in there about 15 times more frequently compared to eastern tributaries. So there is still a lot to research!

Do the Peruvian black spots spread to other fishes? Yes, no doubt, I have seen this several times.
This is a male A. sp. "Balsapuerto" when it arrived my home 6 months ago:

Just a few, small black areas
This is the same fish 5 months later:

A lot more black areas.

And this is one of the offspring, 4 months old, still in the same tank it was born, and still together with the spotted parents:

Black areas clearly start to evolve!

How to deal with this?
It's interesting that if you move the offspring (from spotted parents) to another clean tank (and leave the parents in the breeding tank) before they are 2-3 weeks old, they will not have or develope black areas. Such the "disease" will die out with the wild fishes.

Another phenomenon: I have been told that there has been seen another kind of "black spots" in a few Colombian species recently. This form looks different, and it spreads much earlier and easier to the offspring, thus more difficult to combat.