Apisto Caucatuoides Behvaioral Questions

[ApistoNerd23]

This is my first post, although I read this forum almost everyday.

I have a non-paired Caucatuoides pair that I would like to understand a bit better. Since I've owned them their behavior has changed dramatically.

When I first got the Cacs, the female was very yellow and also very territorial toward the 3 Bolivian rams which had been in the tank a few months before her. The male dominated the tank the minute I put him in. He would go straight for the Bolivian rams and they would back down and run. After some time, there were less confrontations and the BRs just gave the Cacs a wide berth, especially the male.

Now, a year later, the pair has never spawned (that I know of). The male looks old and has some kind of iritation on his face which has never cleared up (HTH?). He spits out all of his food except bloodworms. He's pretty chill most of the time but I do see him confront the BRs from time to time. But nowdays, they don't back down from him. He clamps his fins and tries to sneak under them. They seem more annoyed than anything and circle around him and nip him until he moves away. He does this "intimidation dance" where he approaches and then starts rotating from side to side like rolling half way and then back the other way. No one other than him seems to care that he's doing this.

The female has changed to where she looks like a male cac. She almost looks just like the male in size and appearance, although she's a little smaller still and more roundish / robust. No one backs down from her. She's clearly dominant over all the fish. She kicks every fish out of spots and no one kicks her out.

Fascinating changes! Anyone know what's going on here?

This is my first Apisto pair and I'm hooked!

 

[Melanochromis]

I like what you wrote. Good observations and it sounds very much like my experience, as I tend to keep cacatuoides and Bolivian rams in the same tank, just like you.

I think your male is just getting old. Based from my experience, at first a very old cacatuoides will stop eating except the food he likes the most, but eventually he will stop eating anything. Then, he'll be able to survive for a few more weeks or even over a month provided that he's not bullied by other fish. At this point, I like to put him in a "breeding box" (like those used for guppies) just to keep him away from other fish. It's sad to see your favorite fish gets old and withers away, but it's also fulfilling to know that he had a good life and is dying of old age and not other causes.

The "female"... I suspect may not be a female at all. There's always a possibility of a sneaker male. Having raised countless cacatuoides, I'm still fooled occasionally. One time, a "female" in yellowish breeding color turned into a gorgeous male after I took a dominant male out of the tank. For nearly a year, I believed that fish was a female and tried unsuccessfully to breed her with another male. LOL

Anyway, my post is getting long. Hope you enjoy keeping your cacatuoides and Bolivian rams. They both are great fish

 

[ApistoNerd23]

I think the old fish theory is probably true. The male hangs out near the top of the tank away from all the other fish unless its eating time. He doesn't look sick or anything aside from just having a worn-out look to him. I like the sneaker male idea. Is there any way to know definitively is she is a he?

Have you ever kept Bolivian Rams with any other Apistos like Agasizzi?

 

[tjudy]

How large is the aquarium? If the tank is less than 48" long I would probably remove the BR (assuming that the goal is to spawn the apsitos).

I concur that the male is probably a bit long in the tooth. If the second fish used to color up into full yellow glory for the male, then it is probably a female... but after a year of not getting any breeding attention from the male she has given up trying. Start over with a group of 6 juvenile apistos (3/4") and let them grow up in the tank together. That should get you a pair or harem.

 

[ApistoNerd23]

The tank is a 55G show so it's exactly 48". The 3 BRs have pretty good room to stake out territories and don't seem to squabble much with the Cacs. It's pretty heavily planted with lots of wood, leaves, etc. Breeding has not been a priority but it is noteworthy that neither the BRs or Cacs have spawned. To be honest, the most disruptive fish in the tank are my Siamese Algae Eaters (Siamensis Langei). They are about 4.5" inches long and FAST. In my uneducated observations, the SAEs and their "boisterousness" seem to interfere with the cichlid social structure. What I mean is, I see the social behaviors start ("This is my territory and I'm the boss") ("No, I'm the boss.) and right in the middle of it, a SAE flies through and the BRs and Cacs are like "what just happened?" It's like the cichlids are more concerned with what the heck is going on and never get to finish their social interactions.

Like I said, this is coming from someone who knows little about dwarf cichlids but they seems to have a complicated social structure which the bigger fish are disrupting.

Interesting suggestion that the female may have said "screw it I'm old" and quit showing the yellow colors. She definitely used to be yellow.

Thanks for the input! The 6 apisto idea is great. My plan is to let these two live out their old age and then start over. They've been a great first pair!

 

[Melanochromis]

Like I said, this is coming from someone who knows little about dwarf cichlids but they seems to have a complicated social structure which the bigger fish are disrupting.

I think your theory is possible. Bigger fish that swim around obnoxiously can probably affect the cichlid behavior and likely inhibit the breeding behavior.

Interesting suggestion that the female may have said "screw it I'm old" and quit showing the yellow colors. She definitely used to be yellow.

Some of my female cacatuoides remained in breeding color until the day they died (of old age). Interestingly, a sneaker male can also show the yellow color like a breeding female too until you remove a larger, dominating male from the tank.

Thanks for the input! The 6 apisto idea is great. My plan is to let these two live out their old age and then start over. They've been a great first pair!

You don't even have to wait !! An old female may not be ideal but she can still breed, often with huge number of eggs. And your old male may also pair up with a much younger female too. As long as you can manage the aggression, I say you can put them all the same tank to see what might happen.

 

[ApistoNerd23]

One more question, what do you guys think the hanging around at the top of tank behavior from the old dude is all about? Is he avoiding confrontation or something? He swims around and checks stuff out some, but more often than not, I find him about 4 inches from the top of tank near the heater (the tank overall is 82ish).

 

[Mike Wise]

This is typical behavior for an apisto without a territory and harassed by other territorial fish. I'd remove him to another tank before stress increases the chance of it getting sick.

 

[ApistoNerd23]

So should I just move the old dude to my 10g quarantine tank I have with some fake plants and a fake log and let him live out his days in there? Its the only extra tank I have. He still eats good. But has the old cloudy eyes and im sure hes not gonna be fighting anyone for territory. Thanks for the information!

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, I have several 'geriatric tanks' just for my old breeders. They served me well for much of their lives, so I feel they should have a decent retirement.

 

[ApistoNerd23]

Thanks Mike! I got him moved into his retirement home tonight. Looked a little stressed but changed his mind one I put a little brine shrimp in the tank.

Interestingly, I sat and watched for a bit last night and it almost seemed that the fish he was avoiding were actually the large Siamese algae eaters. When they weren't around, he would come down and mess with the other cichlids. Like he was actually the aggressor (no one really cared much). But then the SAEs would get moving again and he would run off the to the top of the tank.

Either way, I'm sure he's less stressed in a place where he can be the undisputed champ again.

 

[Mike Wise]

I learned early in my aquarium experience that Siamese Algae Eaters are not good inhabitants in tanks with smaller peaceful fish. Once they get some size, they change from eating algae (never really good at this) to attaching themselves to other fish and rasping the slime coat off the body. I had this species attach to the flanks of angelfish, and head of an albino corydoras. This caused fungus to grow in the wounds. The cory looked like Albert Einstein!

 

[talisker]

Siamese Algae Eaters can be a nasty fish even when housed with other bigger cichlids, they are a nightmare to catch as well when you wan't them out of the tank

 

[ApistoNerd23]

Here's the ironic part: I did a lot of research in my pre-Apisto days trying to find the "good" SAE. I thought the link with pictures from thekrib.com was right on and I even bought a "true" SAE based on it. I noticed the famous red algae eater fish never ate a bit of algae in my plant tank. Then I found another SAE article where a fish researcher in the Czech Republic took the "true" SAE and found that it was actually like 4 different species and the only real algae eater was the Crossocheilus Langei instead of Siamensis. This was the *only* SAE with a black ventral blotch - easy identification. In a strange twist of luck, I found the Langei at a local shop like a week later, with the ventral blotch and got three of them. They ate algae constantly... nibble nibble nibble on everything. I have some video where they were like little bulldozers "bzzzzzz bzzzzzzzz" on all the plants. Now fast forward a couple years and they are BIG (5 to 6 inches) and FAST. I never see them make any moves toward any fish. They still nibble on everything sitting still.

But they DEFINITELY appear to "disturb" all the dwarf cichlids with their speed and obnoxiousness. Like big dumb idiots. LOL.

What's really ironic was that I found this in one of the links I was looking for today for jogging my memory about all the different kinds of SAEs:

from:

http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/

"Their active behavior might stress some sensitive species like dwarf cichlids and prevent them from spawning"

LOL.

Anyway, here's another link on SAE's etc etc but I would just say from my limited Apisto experience, ANY of the "algae eaters", even the non aggressive algae eating ones, might be a bad idea for an Apisto tank. If for no other reason than their size and speed.

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum/showthread.php/65103-Crossocheilus-siamensis-%28Common-name-%E2%80%93-Siamese-Algae-Eater%29-%28%29

Here was the original link of the SAE research and the Langei with the ventral blotch etc. It's broken now but might be back someday. It was super nerdy in a good way.

http://math.muni.cz/~niederle/tabulka.html

Hopefully any of this info might turn up in a search and save someone the trouble of thinking "Plant tank + SAE + dwarf cichlid" would be a trouble-free combo.

PS, "Mr Magoo" the male Cac is loving his time at the "10 Gallon Center for Retired Apistos". Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[ApistoNerd23]

and yeah... I'm having a heck of a time trying to catch the SAEs...