A. viejita or macmasteri? Please help!

[dpien]

Hi all, I recently acquired 1 male and 3 females of wild caught Apisto's from Colombia, which were labelled "A. cf. macmasteri/viejita" ! I know they are wild as I know the importer well and have had many wild fish from them in the past (usually from Colombia).
In view of the importance of trying to keep these species pure in the hobby, any inputs would be greatly appreciated regarding the true identity of these beauties (see attached pics of male and female).
I noticed from a previous thread here that they greatly resemble the original A. sp. 'rotsaum', due to the continuous red border on the dorsal and the black colouration in the first 3 dorsal spines. Also, there is some blue colouration in the lips and depending on the mood of the fish, quite prominent abdominal stripes. The lateral line is not continuous but it does have the zig-zag pattern to some extent. The ventral view of the female showing two dark blotches on the belly is also shown here.
If you need any more info on these specimens, please ask me!
Many thanks!

Ok: the site won't let me post decent sized pics here, so pls mail me if you can help me with this identification. Thanks again.

 

[Mike Wise]

I probably can help you. Just down size your photos to a 600 pixel width. You should be able to add them to the site. You can send them to my email address, apistowise(at)earthlink(dot)net, and I can do it for you.

 

[dpien]

Hi Mike, I sent the pictures to your e-mail address. Thanks for your trouble...

 

[Microman]

Hey Daniel,
I would like to see these pics also....Email me mate.
Hope you are well,
Mark...

 

[RAF]

I guess more of us are curious, I know I am... maybe Mike or Mark can host them and place them here.

 

[dpien]

Hi Mark and Ricardo, I sent two e-mails to both of you, one containing pictures of the male and one with pictures of one of the females. Thanks!

 

[Mike Wise]

dpien,

I have attached the best photo of your male:

It is a nice looking Rotrücken/Red-shoulder A. macmasteri. Don't be too disappointed. The true A. viejita (Rotsaum) is very rarely seen in the hobby. I have only seen it once - 12 years ago. Probably the best way to get this fish is for a hobbyist to go to Colombia and collect it.

 

[dpien]

Many thanks for the positive id Mike.

 

[fredmir1]

A. viejita

I do have some A. viejita that are Asia bred, would these really be Macmasteri??

Thanks

George

 

[dpien]

Hi George, as far as I know there are at least three different sub-species of A. viejita and this further complicates the identification issues within the A. macmasteri complex.
According to the latest Datz dwarf cichlid identification book, even wild specimens are found which have intermediate A. macmasteri/viejita character (A 122). It seems that, unfortunately, it's almost impossible to keep the two species 'pure', assuming that they are truly two distinct species.
It would be great to see some pics of your A. viejita.

Dan

 

[fredmir1]

My males A. macmasteri (czech) and viejita (asia) do look different

My A. macmaster male is very colurfull and the viejita looks like a viejita 2 to me??

I try and see if I can take any good pic`s of them

George

 

[dpien]

Thanks, George, would be nice to see..
There is indeed a lot of variation (obvious differences between individuals sold as 'viejita' and those sold as 'macmasteri' etc.) within the A. macmasteri group.
But what I mean is, I think the problem is that cross-breeding occurs readily and this has also significantly affected the looks of the specimens bred in the aquarium trade.
Even if they look very different and distinguishable from each other, it is difficult to say how closely aquarium trade bred specimens resemble the true natural ancestors.

 

[RAF]

According to the latest Datz dwarf cichlid identification book, even wild specimens are found which have intermediate A. macmasteri/viejita character (A 122). It seems that, unfortunately, it's almost impossible to keep the two species 'pure', assuming that they are truly two distinct species.
It would be great to see some pics of your A. viejita.

Dan

I think that nowadays that's the question we should ask. Maybe some DNA tests would be nice.

 

[Mike Wise]

DNA studies show that A. macmasteri, A. viejita, and A. sp. Schwarzkehl/Rotflecken are closely related, but genetically distinct species. In the early 80s it is probable that the 3 species were mixed by hobbyists to produce some of the super colorful forms of the macmasteri-group.

Wildcaught A. macmasteri that are imported commercially into the hobby are probably collected very close to Villavicencio. A. viejita, which comes from a different and a bit more distant drainage doesn't seem to be collected unless by happenstance or on special request. Most native collectors - like most of us - have a hard time distinguishing the 2 species. They see no reason to travel farther than necessary to get a fish when a more colorful one (A. macmasteri Rotrücken) can be collected nearby. They are paid the same for either fish. The exporters, with rare exceptions, are more interested in moving fish than searching out specific species. They don't really care about the species as long as it sells.