A. sp. D50 - another larvophilous mouthbrooder from Colombia

[Shane Puthuparambil]

Oliver has them up in Canada. I really want to go up there and get them... except I live a few thousand miles away. As long as I have my hobbyist form, I doubt that it should be much of an issue.

 

[Bart Hazes]

Sometimes phylogeny isn't a neatly branching tree. "Branches" can merge back together and then diverge again.

When you are dealing with a speciation phylogeny, especially for eukaryotes, the branches are not supposed to merge back. Even for bacteria the true speciation tree at the organism level should not branch back. For bacteria people do speak of the 'web of life' instead of the 'tree of life' but that is because most bacterial trees are based on genetic sequences and bacteria can exchange pieces of DNA so these pieces no longer represent speciation history.

There can be reversal of features. For instance, the regani lineage may have lost the flank spot and D50 later evolved a new, or resurrected the old, flank spot. And their can be convergence, where evolution independently evolves the same feature more than once. For instance, if the last common ancestor of D50 and barlowi/megastoma was not a mouthbrooder, then mouthbrooding evolved independently in D50 and the barlowi/megastoma sister species.

 

[Frank Hättich]

What are the implications for relationships? Can the flank spot be the ancestral state and D50 being the most basal branch in the regani lineage, splitting off before the flank spot was lost, or not regani lineage after all. The bottom image also shows an interesting forward extension of the cheek stripe. I think I've seen that before but don't remember on what species.

I don't think that the macmasteri-group is basal to the regani-lineage, therefore I don't think that D50 is either. I'm quite sure that there will be an exception to every „rule“ one formulates based on phenotypical features. So the lateral spot of D50 may just be such an exception. However, the other recently discovered mouthbrooder from Colombia, A. sp. D10, also shows a lateral band similar to macmasteri-group species as well as an abdominal blotch during aggression and a lateral spot. Thus if one beliefs that D50 is just an exception, there may already be two such exceptions So in the end it may in fact turn out that there is a new lineage.

I see the cheek stripe in my Apistogramma Hongsloi female.

In the D50, there seems to be pronounce vertical barring as well. Never noticed it.

Yes, A. cf. honglsoi forms show a similar stripe sometimes, but I have only seen it in males so far. But some female A. cf. hoignei seem to show a similar marking too. Pronounced vertical bars have only been shown very rarely by my D50 so far.

 

[Mike Wise]

Sometimes phylogeny isn't a neatly branching tree. "Branches" can merge back together and then diverge again.

I agree. There are many more characteristics that separate the regani-lineage from other lineages. It would be interesting to see numbers and locations of cephalic pores on this species. I think this would help more with placement within the genus.

 

[gerald]

I was referring to species of apparent hybrid origin, such as the white shiner (Luxilus albeolus) in central North Carolina and Virginia. DNA studies suggests it arose as a hybrid of L. cerasinus (crescent shiner) and L. cornutus (common shiner). White shiners in the Roanoke basin look different from those in the Neuse and Cape Fear basins, so it seems to be diverging again into multiple forms. Hybrid species might have evolved among Apistos too, along with convergent evolution and re-emergence of primitive features that were not lost genetically, but may have been hidden for thousands of years by other genes. The lateral spot just might be something like that, since nearly all South Amer cichlid lineages seem to have it.

QUOTE="Bart Hazes, post: 103601, member: 16685"]When you are dealing with a speciation phylogeny, especially for eukaryotes, the branches are not supposed to merge back. Even for bacteria the true speciation tree at the organism level should not branch back. For bacteria people do speak of the 'web of life' instead of the 'tree of life' but that is because most bacterial trees are based on genetic sequences and bacteria can exchange pieces of DNA so these pieces no longer represent speciation history.

There can be reversal of features. For instance, the regani lineage may have lost the flank spot and D50 later evolved a new, or resurrected the old, flank spot. And their can be convergence, where evolution independently evolves the same feature more than once. For instance, if the last common ancestor of D50 and barlowi/megastoma was not a mouthbrooder, then mouthbrooding evolved independently in D50 and the barlowi/megastoma sister species.[/QUOTE]

 

[rr16]

Well this is an interesting read on the train on the way to my Aquarist Society meeting in Preston!
Just to throw more into the mix; epigenetics! It would be interesting to find out which characteristics are influenced by the environment or stresses, and then affect methylation of DNA; creating stress responses to the environment that can be inherited in subsequent generations.
Go Lamarck!

 

[Frank Hättich]

Here (click) you find a brand new article on DNA-based phylogeny of the genus by Uwe Römer and co-workers. Not an easy read for non-specialists in DNA-analysis though

 

[Bart Hazes]

Here (click) you find a brand new article on DNA-based phylogeny of the genus by Uwe Römer and co-workers. Not an easy read for non-specialists in DNA-analysis though

Thanks for letting us know. I'll be spending some time on that one.

 

[rr16]

That was a tough read! Ha ha.

 

[rr16]

I'm now the proud owner of a stunning pair of D10!

 

[Shane Puthuparambil]

I'm now the proud owner of a stunning pair of D10!

You'd better post photos.

I am going to go and read that article now.

 

[Bart Hazes]

That was a tough read! Ha ha.

I just posted a blog on my take on that paper and explaining some of the methodology. I started a new thread for it so as not to distract from this one.

 

[rr16]

The pic isn't great.

 

[Shane Puthuparambil]

Excited. Just got my trio in. Here are two post acclimation pics.

 

[Bart Hazes]

Earlier this month there was a post on the Apistogramma International facebook group showing an apisto found by Heiko Bleher. He was all excited because it had a red rim around the pupil. I don't know when or where he found it and he didn't give a name but it looks similar to your female.

 

[Shane Puthuparambil]

Yes, I saw that too. Frank Ha, Miguel and I all commented on it . My female does look quite similar, but the fish in the photo could potentially be D10 as well. Both come from the same "region". I need to do some more research.

 

[Frank Hättich]

Mostly because of the rather low and completely truncate dorsal fin of the female and the young male Bleher showed, I think his fish are not D10 or D50 (their caudal spot is also vertically more extended than those of D10 and D50). However, they are likely closely related to D10 and/or D50.

 

[rr16]

My D10 don't have red eyes.

 

[Shane Puthuparambil]

My D10 don't have red eyes.

Interesting....have a few more pics?

My male today...

 

[rr16]

Here are some