A. sp algodon / A. sp pebas?

[Erik82]

Hi all,
for a week ago I bought myself 2 pairs of "A. sp algodon". Some say it is a A. sp pebas others say it is a A. sp. papagei. I was wondering if some one can say what kind they actually are (if they are not to small to identify).

Female

Male 1 (the biggist one)

Male 2 (very small male)

 

[Mike Wise]

"A. sp. Algodon I" was a common commercial name for A. sp. Papagei. Your fish show the double caudal patch seen on 2 different species: A. sp. Papagei and A. sp. Roca Etern. Your male doesn't have the bright colors of the more popular population of A. sp. Papagei (A91). There is a less colorful population of the Papagei (A92), too. A. sp. Roca Eterna, which comes from a different river system that occurs closer Iquitos (easier to get), is now more common than the true Papagei. Black markings on males of the 2 species are very similar, but the females' brood dress are different. On Papagei, the female shows 2 (sometimes 3) flank spots + the double caudal patch. On Roca Eterna, the female shows 5 (sometimes 4) flank spots + the double caudal spot. I think once the female puts on her brood dress, you will know which species you have.

 

[Erik82]

Thanks for your replay Mike.
Yesterday i brought back the small less dominant male back in the tank and guess what.. after 1 hour eggs were placed in a coconut shelve. The breeding pattern shows 5 black spots and a double caudal spot. With this knowledge i would say the fish are A. sp Roca Eterna...

What are the differences between the Roca Eterna and the pebas? They look very similar to me..

 

[Mike Wise]

The caudal patch of both A. sp. Roca Eterna and A. sp. Pebas is composed of the caudal spot + the flank spot on the last vertical bar (Bar 7). On Roca Eterna, like that on A. sp. Papagei, the Bar 7 spot is nearly equal in size to that of the caudal spot. It forms an hourglass shape. On Pebas, the Bar 7 spot is much smaller than that of the caudal spot. It forms a more triangular shape.

 

[Erik82]

That's a small detail. Thank you for the additional information Mike.

 

[Mark]

Hi Mike,

Since wenn do you call them sp. Roca Eterna. I always thought there are only two species with a double caudalspot; papagay and pebas (both sold as algodon and other commercial names) Now I understand that the Roca Eterna is an intermediate between the two. I always thought the Roca Eterna to be a variant (or synonym) of Pebas.

Mark

 

[Mike Wise]

No, there are at least 3 different Pebas-subcomplex species. Roca Eterna is more closely related to Papagei than Pebas. Roca Eterna & Papagei have the same caudal patch shape and similar dark markings. The easiest method to distinguish these 2 forms is by the females' brood dress. Papagei & Pebas are found in the Río Ampiyacu system. Roca Eterna is found in a system closer to the Río Napo (I know which river, but the collectors asked me not to give the actual location). I think that the confusion is that Roca Eterna is a name used by the collectors. It has never been used in a published article that I know about. Most specimens of Roca Eterna that enter the commercial trade are sold as either A. sp. Papagei or A. sp. Algodon.

 

[Erik82]

Hi All,
in the Netherlands we have a issue about the Roca eterna I recently bought.

Now I have from both pairs eggs. In the Netherlands we discussed about the different photo's I posted at a Forum. Some people think I might have two different species. What are your thoughts?

Pair 1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Pair 2

 

[Mark]

For me 2 species. Female 1 has the double spot, female 2 has the single spot. Male 1 is not very clear (no visible black markings), male 2 is not one of the 3 species. I think:

female 1 sp. Roca Eterna (although the spots seem to disappear)
male 1 unknown
female 2 sp. Nanay or sp. Putumayo or something like that
male 2 see female 2

Mark

 

[Mike Wise]

Species 1 appears to be the same as the specimens of A. sp. Roca Eterna that I received from collectors who collected it at the typical Roca Eterna site.

Species 2 may be the same species. Although the caudal spot and dark part of Bar 7 do not join, they are both 'taller' than the other flank spots - similar in size to the black markings that form the 'caudal patch' on Roca Eterna and Papagei. Cichlids show some variation in the intensity of their markings. This might be a Roca Eterna specimen with a pale join between the caudal spot and Bar 7. Was this fish from the same shipment as Species 1?

 

[Mark]

Yes it came in in the same shipment and the same bag.

Mark

 

[Microman]

Mike, Is Roca Eterna not also a slightly deeper bodied fish with different body shape than both Papagei and Pebas? If i remember correctly, the fisherman that you know, mentioned that he often uses this as a diagnostic feature.
Toms pics of Roca Eterna illustrate this well.

Mark...

 

[Erik82]

Indeed, they came with the same shipment.

The photographs below belong to the the male of pair 1

 

[Mike Wise]

Mark, Yes, Roca Eterna is slightly deeper bodied than Papagei. This feature is helpful for identification only if the fish has not lived for long in an aquarium, where any fish quickly can become obese from over-feeding and under-exercising (just like humans)! Because of this I tend to look more at other features that can't change (too much).

Erik, if the fish came together, my guess is that they were collected together - and probably are the same species, only with a slight abberation in the caudal patch. If truth were to be told, there is almost no difference between cruzi-subcomplex species and Pebas-subcomplex species other than the caudal patch.

 

[Erik82]

Thanks for the help all! The future will tell us if pair 2 might be a Roca Eterna (when the young females shows a double caudal patch it is clear, if not... then it may be a new species. This morning about 90 fry were saying hi to me.. (pair 2)

 

[Erik82]

Last week I bought the Mergus cichlid atlas band 1. At page 365 there is a female posted which me remind me at my female of pair 2. I think the unidentified pair (pair 2) might be A. cruzi. Here is also an other photograph of my male (in my opinion just like the one at page 359)

What are your thoughts?

 

[Mike Wise]

Cichlid Atlas 1 was written in 1997 - 13 years ago. Much has changed in our understanding of apistos since then. The chapter on 'A. cruzi' actually pictures at least 4 different species/forms. The fish on p. 365 look like a cruzi-subcomplex species, but not the holotype form of A. cruzi. They appear too deep-bodied (high-backed) for cruzi. My guess is that they are A. sp. Putumayo, but I'm not absolutely certain. The cruzi-subcomplex is not very well understood right now. We really need to do serious collecting and examination of species from the region of the Napo Superfan. Anyway, neither fish on p. 365 show the double spot 'caudal patch' that your fish show - and indicative of a Pebas-subcomplex species.

 

[Erik82]

Tanks for your replay Mike. I did not understand the cruzi complex were that "unknown". Ill keep it as a A. sp. Putumayo, When the male becomes older maybe there will be some clarity about this fish.

 

[Mike Wise]

I see no reason to use "A. sp. Putumayo" for this fish. All the features on the fish (especially females in brood dress) indicate that this is A. sp. Roca Eterna.

 

[Erik82]

I see no reason to use "A. sp. Putumayo" for this fish. All the features on the fish (especially females in brood dress) indicate that this is A. sp. Roca Eterna.

I read your post like you were referring to my fish, but now I see you refer to the fish in Cichlid Atlas band 1. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The female brood dress is not that clear to me. The caudal patch is clearly not jointed, which is one old the reasons it should be a Roca Eterne. I will call them Roca Eterne but I am very curious how the caudal patch of the first fry will develop..