A. playayacu

[Zeufel]

Hello together,

has someone experience with this fish.
No matter what I do, they don't want to spawn.

Male is slightly aggressive, I have separated them already with no result.

 

[Tom C]

It would have been amazing if you did, but I'm sorry, it is hard to imagine that you actually have Apistogramma playayacu (A 84).
As far as I know, this species is not in the hobby, and it hasn't been collected since 2004, when a few fish came to Germany as contaminants to some Corydoras from Colombia.
Could you show us a picture of your fish?
Please have a look at the picture of the live fish on page 329 in the description of the species from 2011, and see if this is the fish you actually have.

 

[Zeufel]

Hi Tom,

here are some pictures

Doesn't look like an A. playayacu at all, but what is it then?

 

[Mike Wise]

Actually, only 1 live specimen of A. playayacu has ever been imported. The type series used to describe the species are preserved specimens that came from the Field Museum in Chicago. If I remember correctly they were collected in the 1980s. I was lucky to be with Dr. Römer, along with David Soares, when we examined the Ecuadorian collections. When we saw the fish among A. payaminonis, Uwe & I just looked at each other and grinned. We knew it was the same species Bork found in a batch of cories from Colombia. TomC, Julio Melgar, and I traveled to the Peru/Ecuador/Colombia border last fall in hopes of finding this species, but did not. This area is not collected commercially. It is too far from export stations in Peru to be economic. Ecuador bans export of its native species - including fish. This region of Colombia is rather dangerous. Drug cartels control much of the area. Several tourists were kidnapped by 'bandits' in the area just before we arrived.

Your fish, like A. playayacu, is a cruzi-subcomplex species, but it certainly is not A. playayacu. I believe that it is A. sp. Putumayo, but not 100% positive. I would need better photos of both sexes that show more diagnostic feature to be sure

 

[Zeufel]

Hi Mike,

thanks for your Information.
I try to take better photos and upload them here.

 

[Tom C]

I too ended up in the A. cruzi-subcomplex, Mike (assuming there is no hidden double caudal spot here), but without pictures of both sexes, showing the black markings better, I found it quite close to A. sp. "Napo 3" too:

 

[Zeufel]

Here are two photos of the female

 

[Mike Wise]

Hmm ... I think that this is actually a young male. Female in this species-complex should show much more black on the ventral fins.

 

[Zeufel]

The female is at least 1 year old, so it can't be a young one.

 

[Mike Wise]

Then a sub-dominant male, possibly? Maybe this is why they don't breed.

 

[Zeufel]

Stay sub-dominant males smaller than the dominant? Because the (fe)male is way smaller then the male.

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, sub-dominant male often can have their growth retarded by being in with a larger, dominant male. I am not saying that your female is 100% positively a male, but it is a possibility.

 

[Zeufel]

I think I will buy a small 30 cm tank and separate them for a while.

 

[Rolo]

Actually, only 1 live specimen of A. playayacu has ever been imported.

Hi Mike,

This statement is based on the assumption, that A. playayacu is identical with A. sp. "Caqueta", as Römer states in the description of A. playayacu. But I doubt, that this assumption is correct. How can you be so sure about that?

Johannes fish (and I have the same) are likely the same as the A. sp. "Napo 3" on Toms pictures and they are obviously close related to A. sp. "Putumayo". They were collected by Mortenthaler in the Rio Napo, which would fit to the distribution of A. playayacu according to the description. A. sp. "Caqueta" in contrast - if the name is a hint to the catch locality - is from the Caqueta system, not from the Napo system.
I'm not really good in evaluating fishes in alcohol, but the appearance of A. playayacu in the description could fit to my fishes. Body shape and the double caudal spot are the same, the horizontal stripes more or less exist, depending on mood.

So, in my opinion, Johannes fish IS A. playayacu.
The crucial point is, that this species is NOT formerly known as A. sp. "Caqueta" but as A. sp. "Napo 3".

Now it's your turn again... ;-)

best regards,
Rolo

 

[Mike Wise]

Rolo, I was with Uwe and David Soares when we first examined the type material used for A. playayacu. There is no doubt in my mind (or Uwe's) that it is the same species as Bork's fish. The triangular rows of blotches that form the abdominal stripes were very distinct - and unique to this cruzi-like species.

Römer, et al. (2011) lists only 2 locations in the upper Río Napo system. Bork found his fish among a shipment of Corydoras reynoldsi. C. reynoldsi is only known from the Río Caquetá/Rio Japurá (same river system with different names in Colombia and Brazil) and the middle Rio Solimões just below the mouth of the Japurá, where it enters the Solimões. This indicates that Bork's apisto is from the Caquetá/Japurá drainage, not from the Rio Napo. A. playayacu isn't the only apistos that have such an odd distribution pattern in this region. A. payaminonis and A. cf. alacrina show a similar pattern. If we look at modern river systems, it does appear odd that an apisto species would be found in these 2 different systems (one part of the Peruvian Amazon and one part of the Colombian/Brazilian Amazon) - and separated from each other by the Putumayo drainage. If we look at ancient drainage patterns, however, it is not so unusual. Prior to the opening of the modern Amazon drainage, the western rivers of the modern Amazon Basin flowed north and west into what is the present Orinoco Basin. TomC, Julio Melgar, and I traveled up the Napo hoping to find A. playayacu and A. payaminonis near the common borders of Peru/Colombia/Ecuador. We were unable to find them in Peru and - don't tell anyone - across the border into Ecuador. What we found was a group of apistos similar to those found in the Río Napo of Peru: A. sp. cf. Putumayo, A. sp. Rocafuerte/Shally, and a new nijsseni-group species intermediate between A. martini/pantalone and A. payaminonis. Obviously, the area containing A. playayacu (and A. payaminonis & A. cf. alacrina) belongs to a different - and probably very old, relict - faunal realm separate from the rest of Napo system. We also collected cruzi-like fish farther down the Napo. All were more like other known species in the cruzi-subcomplex and not anything like A. playayacu. There is almost no possibility that A. sp. Napo 3 can be the same species as A. playayacu (different faunal realms), but it is very likely that A. sp. Caquetá the same species as A. playayacu (same faunal realm).

 

[Rolo]

Okay Mike, thanks for the explanation.

I will go on discussing this with Volker... ;-)

best regards,
Rolo

 

[Mike Wise]

Rolo, I'd be very interested in Volker's opinion.

 

[Ekona]

http://tahuampa.blogspot.com/p/last-arrivals-2012.html

The fish listed as "Code A153 Common Name: Apistograma San Antonio (sp. #1)" on the Acuario La Tahuampa website page above (you have to scroll down to it) appears to have some similarities to the one pictured in the Vertebrate Zoololgy paper referenced in the earlier post. The distinct abdominal markings as well as the spotting on the anal fin is what caught my eye after looking at the pics of A. playayacu in the article. I'm not saying the "A. San Antonio" is A. playayacu, but thought I'd post it because of the similarities and just as a comparison. Any idea what the the "A. San Antonio" fish might be, if not A. playayacu?

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, it looks like A. playayacu to me, too. Based on the date on the tank, I get a feeling that Tino, who accompanied Tom, Julio and me to the upper Peruvian Napo, returned and found something farther in Ecuador. He's one of the best - and sharpest - collectors in Peru.

 

[Ekona]

Interesting thread, always great to hear about collecting adventures. It's a neat looking apisto.
As for the A. sp. rocafuerte, I am excited to hear that Jeff has these on his stocklist! It looks like one great looking apisto - I've put my request in for some and I hope I'm lucky