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44 Gallon Stocking

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
The other reason is propagation. As you mentioned it's best to heavily plant a tank when first set up. There are a few ways to accomplish this - one is to buy a lot of plants. The other, cheaper method is to buy the plant species you want ahead of time and propagate them. This is what I'm doing with my stem plants
Cheaper, yes. More effective... no. I've seen this reasoning and this course of action a lot of times. Almost never people reached the plant mass actually needed. That's why I put such an emphasis on it. It simply never works out. Hope you are one of the few cases where it does. But excuse me having doubts.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
...... This is exactly what I'm doing with the bucket and biological media. I don't see any mention of ammonium chloride as a source other than the thread author mentioning he doesn't like to use it. I don't see it mentioned in the response from Ryan Newton. I am using it at pretty low rates, much lower than the label specifies. ....
You don't need any ammonia, but if you are only adding a trace it won't matter. It is exactly what @MacZ says <"https://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/44-gallon-stocking.24859/#post-120489">.

"Cycling" in the traditional sense doesn't really exist. Ammonium based cycling only makes sense if you are going to introduce a lot of fish to an unplanted tank in a single "hit". I've called it the <"Mbuna scenario">.

Have a look at the papers linked in to <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...s-in-aquariums-and-cycling.70906/#post-710063">, they talk about the COMAMMOX Nitrospira and Ammonia Oxidising Archaea (AOA) <"that scientists have found it aquarium filters">, not the AOB (isolated from sewage sludge) that were thought to occur in filters, but actually don't.

The best source of nitrifying microbes is a an inoculum from an established planted aquarium, ideally including <"some substrate from the rhizosphere">.
I'll do some ammonia/nitrite tests on my bucket soon and see if it's been effective.
I'm not a fan of hobby type tests, if you have access to an ion selective electrode it will give you values you can trust, if you haven't? I wouldn't make decisions based on their results. I'm not anti-testing (I actually look after an analytical lab.), but I think there are methods with a <"higher probability of success">.

cheers Darrel
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
The other reason is propagation. As you mentioned it's best to heavily plant a tank when first set up. There are a few ways to accomplish this - one is to buy a lot of plants. The other, cheaper method is to buy the plant species you want ahead of time and propagate them. This is what I'm doing with my stem plants
Cheaper, yes. More effective... no. I've seen this reasoning and this course of action a lot of times.
I'm going to differ in opinion from @MacZ there. I think it is a viable method to bulk up your stems.
Almost never people reached the plant mass actually needed. That's why I put such an emphasis on it.
I'm going to agree there, basically the more plants the better. I use the <"health and growth of a floating plant"> (originally Duckweed (Lemna minor), but now Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum)) as an indication of when to add nutrients.

I tend to use floating plants and two subsurface floaters (Ceratopteris "thalictroides" & Ceratophyllum demersum) <"as my "stems">. One reason for this is that they don't need replanting and they are great self propagators.

cheers Darrel
 

Epos7

Member
Messages
58
Location
WA, USA
Thanks for all the input!

FWIW I have CO2 injection and a nice light on my plants tub. They're growing quite nicely and I think I should be able to multiply my stem plants by a factor of 4-5 by the time I'm ready to move them to the tank.

One issue I'm running into with the stocking suggestions is nowhere online seems to sell just male apistos. They're almost universally available only in pairs.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
FWIW I have CO2 injection and a nice light on my plants tub. They're growing quite nicely and I think I should be able to multiply my stem plants by a factor of 4-5 by the time I'm ready to move them to the tank.
Nice. It's possible the plants will experience some shock going into a lower CO2, lower light environment. Will be an adjustment, anyway.

One issue I'm running into with the stocking suggestions is nowhere online seems to sell just male apistos. They're almost universally available only in pairs.
I think most sellers are flexible, especially if it's one of the more popular fish. They'll have a lot, and possibly an excess of one of the sexes. Try emailing them, or going through an individual breeder.
 

Epos7

Member
Messages
58
Location
WA, USA
I think most sellers are flexible, especially if it's one of the more popular fish. They'll have a lot, and possibly an excess of one of the sexes. Try emailing them, or going through an individual breeder.

Good to know. My closest options are The Wet Spot and Red Fish Blue Fish. The former only sells pairs or unsexed fish, and the latter lists males and females but the only ones ever in stock are pairs.

I'll see if I can find any individual breeders as an alternative.
 

Epos7

Member
Messages
58
Location
WA, USA
Nice. It's possible the plants will experience some shock going into a lower CO2, lower light environment. Will be an adjustment, anyway.

I'll be using CO2 injection in the tank as well, targeting similar levels there. Light may be lower as it'll be on a cycle to gradually ramp up then down. I typically never run my lights at full power, peaking at 80-90% for an hour or two in the middle of the cycle. I've only been running the lights on the plant tub at about 60% and growth has still been really good. Wouldn't be surprised if there's some degree of shock as I'm sure something about the environment change will be different.
 

Epos7

Member
Messages
58
Location
WA, USA
Cheaper, yes. More effective... no. I've seen this reasoning and this course of action a lot of times. Almost never people reached the plant mass actually needed. That's why I put such an emphasis on it. It simply never works out. Hope you are one of the few cases where it does. But excuse me having doubts.

Bumping this thread back up. I still haven't stocked the tank as I'm working on building the stand/cabinet, but the plants are doing quite well. My stem plants have multiplied by a factor of 4-5x, and my anubias and buceps made it through their melting phase and are putting on new growth. I think the plants will be in good shape to put together the final tank in a few weeks. I'll likely let it cycle/stabilize for a couple weeks after that before stocking with fish. The plants and filter have been running for over 6 months now, with a few snails in there keeping things clean.

Still leaning toward a single male, or multiple male Borellis. I'll post some pics of the tank once the hardscape and plants are in their final state.
 

Epos7

Member
Messages
58
Location
WA, USA
I've recently become enamored with Apistogramma Abacaxis. If I were to set up the hardscape and plants to ensure there were plenty of line of sight blocks, I wonder how a male Abacaxis would do with a male Borelli and one other male apisto. Contemplating if this may work if I were to introduce all three simultaneously.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I've recently become enamored with Apistogramma Abacaxis. If I were to set up the hardscape and plants to ensure there were plenty of line of sight blocks, I wonder how a male Abacaxis would do with a male Borelli and one other male apisto. Contemplating if this may work if I were to introduce all three simultaneously.
A. sp. "abacaxis" is a blackwater species and grows not to double the size of a clear/whitewater A. borellii but they still get considerably bigger. Do the math. ;)
I'm all but a friend of mixing species. Rather 3 males of the same species in a properly done display. As long as there's no female this usually works out. After looking at the tank dimensions it's either 3 A. borellii o a single A. sp. "Abacaxis".
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,366
Thanks for all the input!

FWIW I have CO2 injection and a nice light on my plants tub. They're growing quite nicely and I think I should be able to multiply my stem plants by a factor of 4-5 by the time I'm ready to move them to the tank.

One issue I'm running into with the stocking suggestions is nowhere online seems to sell just male apistos. They're almost universally available only in pairs.
There are some hobbist or smaller sellers that will sell you male only if you request even if they list pair or trio. A bit depends on if they have extra. A couple of sources include jdaquatics, aquaticclarity, casey tropical, ... online stores are usually less accommodating.
 

Epos7

Member
Messages
58
Location
WA, USA
There are some hobbist or smaller sellers that will sell you male only if you request even if they list pair or trio. A bit depends on if they have extra. A couple of sources include jdaquatics, aquaticclarity, casey tropical, ... online stores are usually less accommodating.

Thanks - sent an email to Aquatic Clarity to see if they're willing to sell males.
 

Epos7

Member
Messages
58
Location
WA, USA
After looking at the tank dimensions it's either 3 A. borellii o a single A. sp. "Abacaxis".

Roger! Three Borelli it is.

I recently acquired a 22 gallon long tank (footprint 90cm x 30cm) - would a single Abacaxis do okay in there, or would it be too small?
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I recently acquired a 22 gallon long tank (footprint 90cm x 30cm) - would a single Abacaxis do okay in there, or would it be too small?
Surely!

I have a single Dicrossus in 80x35x40 and it does great.

photo_2023-05-22_19-21-35.jpg
photo_2023-05-22_19-21-34.jpg
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Good to know! What tankmates do you have in there?
8 Nannostomus eques
5 Hemigrammus filamentosus

Obviously a display.

Used to be more, but once in a while... the Nannostomus are WC and at least 2.5 years old, so they are slowly starting to die off. The Hemigrammus could be more but had to keep costs low last year, so I had to cancel getting a second batch. Lost one to organ failure, rest is doing exceptionally well.
 

BSMet94

New Member
Messages
10
Location
Arcadia, California, USA
I've recently become enamored with Apistogramma Abacaxis. If I were to set up the hardscape and plants to ensure there were plenty of line of sight blocks, I wonder how a male Abacaxis would do with a male Borelli and one other male apisto. Contemplating if this may work if I were to introduce all three simultaneously.
I just like saying “a back a sheece” which means pineapple in Portuguese.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Amazing.You have to do more.
I moved the plants outside the tank. ;)
photo_2023-05-31_12-49-32.jpg
5 Pothos plants, over 10 meters of vines. ;) Stuff that mass of plants into an 80cm tank and you have what I call a heavily planted tank. They use up so much nutrients, the TDS are actually going down over time.
 

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