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blue algae

chris1805

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
333
Location
Odijk, the Netherlands
I indeed have a very strong light... On my other tank i had the problem the light was not strong enough, so i though this time i will buy a strong one. But this one is way to strong... the shop told me it would be fine if i had a black water setup... I added some tannings and did start with the blackout today. I did simphon of most of the blue algae before this, but with only little water. Will keep the water changes small if it's not gone after the blackout and add more tannings. I also decreased the light hours a bit to 7,5 hours now.
 

chris1805

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
333
Location
Odijk, the Netherlands
image.jpeg
 

MickeM

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
441
Location
STOCKHOLM , SWEDEN
When I have done this treat I have mostly had "large" tanks (200-300 liters/ 55-75 gallons ) , but the tactic should be the same..
3-4 service-rounds.. every/every 2nd day ..whatever works in your life-scedule..
Keep up the good work and keep us updated if you can/feel for it..!! Little by little..until the plants have "taken" the power back..:)
(I have never tried this without adding/keeping any algae/detritus-eaters though.. )

BTW gerald.. Regarding the snails eating "blue-green cyano".. I wrote they "seem" to eat.. + when lacking other eatable sources..
I am not 100% sure of it yet!!;)
Although.. my friend with his "plant"-basement is convinced of it.. and he also verifies good results in tanks with no other added food for the snails to eat .. ( but they may not eat the "cyano" very quickly.. He often leaves his small fish-empty tanks untouched for weeks with only the snails remaining inside..
until he get time to clean several of the tanks in one night..!
..often after some species of his killie-fishes have passed on to the eternal "fish-heaven"!!.)
But ofcourse.. the decreasing amount of nutrients when you stop feeding any fishes will play a part in this situation!!

http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/t...basement-with-planted-tanks.17497/#post-94500


I have also seen good results on "cyano" when adding one "Black Horned Nerite Snail"(Neritina sp. ??) alongside the Planorbidae snails in my smallest tanks..
and additionaly.. they are not a very easy snail for Apistos to crush/eat...
..but just add one single individual..otherwise(sometimes) ..you may get their white "calcareus"(?) eggs/egg-capsules deposited all over the tank!!
 

chris1805

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
333
Location
Odijk, the Netherlands
I will keep you guys updated ofcourse and will keep up the hard work after the blackout :) Luckily only dicrossus in this tank so i will look for small snail to see how it goes. These maculatus are very hard to breed so i don't assume they will breed soon. There is a pair of them in there with 9 neon tetra stimulans and just 1 octocinclus. Could i maybe add 3 other otcocinclus or would to lead to to many fish in the tank?

Sadly i have run of floaters but i will try to look for new floaters :)
 

chris1805

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
333
Location
Odijk, the Netherlands
Alright wednesday the blackout was over. The tank is as tanned as the previous picture and so far i haven't spotted a single spot of any algae type. I am keeping the po4 and no3 in the ratio of 1:10 and everything is doing fine. Really praying that i can keep this peacefull balance :)
 

MickeM

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
441
Location
STOCKHOLM , SWEDEN
If you will still get more algae than appreciated, I would decrease/stop the amount of added ferts/nutrients for the plants..
I keep similar plants in several of my tanks without any xtra /added fertilizers ... but none of them are really "fast-growing" plants.. like many "stem"-plants are!! (and therefore competing with the algaes in absorbing the "free" ferts in the tank-water..)

So for now.. I guess you may only "feed" the algaes with it... and since you have "restarted" the tank.. and moved many of the previous plants out.. their capacity of absorbing ferts is also gone!!.. So the algaes probably loves it!!!!!!!!!
You can always start adding it again.. later on.. if needed.. when plant-growth is back at normal level/speed..

But as always.. every tank without any algae-eating animals in it will require some maintenance demand from its owner !! .. as long as the "sun" shines..;)
 

MickeM

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
441
Location
STOCKHOLM , SWEDEN
Actually I can not see any "fully"-developed cyanos in any of the pics..(like a carpet covering everything..) I only see some "slimy greenish" algae... ;)
But as themountain says .. cyanos are bacteria!!!!
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Micke -- that's a good photo of cyano slime towrad the end of its reign; losing the battle. It has lifted off the plants and substrate and is only floating now. In my experience, that's usually the final stage in the cyano terror cycle. Skim off that surface sheet of cyano and it may be gone ... until the next "imbalance" occurs.
 

MickeM

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
441
Location
STOCKHOLM , SWEDEN
Hi gerald + all..

..Thanks... , but I actually poured some new water in that tank just to see if the cyano-carpet would "take off" .. and it sure did..!!:D.. that was 7-8 months ago..after having raised some Apisto-fry for 6months or so in it..

And that/this is also what I wanted to show.. the result of imbalance in tanks.. when/after keeping curious/hungry Apistos (eating/biting snails), and at the same time feeding a lot.. and not changing water frequently....and additionally..this was during some warm summer months...!!!
But since I have been keeping lots of tanks (and then not only my own tanks..) during my last 30 years.. I also knew how to get rid of it.. !!:)

The small siphon-changes+reduction of algae-cells+adding some algae-eaters was a recommendation for Chris .. to point out one kind of method where you don`t have to buy any chemicals or else to get the balance back.. and in a quite easy way too..
Within this tactic.. you are probably doing exactly what we all were mentioning - Resetting the tank balance !! ..in both/several ways..
Chemically..+ in what plant-masses you are choosing to grow/support !!!
( and also..In most functioning eco-systems you/we will find some kind of "decomposers"..which transforms algaes+else into detritus/restproducts..
sometimes for others to decompose even further.. or just being diluted into the water-volume or in the soil/sand...)

And..as we know.. we loose both the healthy/good sand-bacteria(dying) and the positive plant function/growth in a set-up having developed this negatively far as in my pics... when the "carpet" is "coating" everything in a cyano-"infected" tank ..!

This is actually one of our biggest future concerns regarding the bottom sediments of the Baltic Sea (brackish ).. here where I live !!
The result may be deoxygenated(?)+ dead waters!!!!
(According to one old science-book I once read , they actually mention that the Swedish military blew some underwater ridges away with explosives in the 1950-60`s.. to "get rid" of algae-producing loads of sludge products in the close/shallow archipelagean neighbourhoods of Stockholm.. !!.. This sludge must just have flowed/streamed further out..deeper into the Baltic Sea!!??)

/Micke
 

cgjedi

New Member
Messages
8
I wanted to write about my recent experience with cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) with my 8 x 10 gallons. All the tanks are well planted and have snails. In 3 of the tanks I was keeping some A. ortegai. I noticed that my mosses were having problems and were melting into black sludge no matter how many water changes I was doing. In the same tanks this was being caused by cyanobacteria. I started feeding less as well but it had no effect.

I tried several suggested solutions. In one tank I blacked it completely for 4 days. There was no improvement. In another tank I dosed hydrogen peroxide with a large water change the next day. This had some effect but did not clear things up at all. And people who say snails eat this stuff are very much wrong.

Finally, I bought Chemiclean. It is a well-reviewed product that must be bacteria based - even though the manufacturer denies this. In one tank I followed the instructions to the letter. It did absolutely nothing - even after 3 doses over a week. In another tank I put in one dose and waited. This tank had some good success and it cleared the cyano a fair amount over a week. However, this had no where near the results of what the reviewers state (most reviewers have marine systems).

I wanted to understand the root cause and eventually decided to check for phosphates even though I was convinced it could not possibly be the cause. I do not dose plant ferts and the frozen bloodworms are produced by Hikari who guarantee no phosphates in their packing water (unlike most other brands). My test revealed very high amount of phosphates. I was very shocked.

Since I have jetlifter/matten filters in all tanks, there was no chemical filtration taking place. I bought some phosphate absorbing pads(Acurel) and this brought the phosphate down to almost nothing within a couple days. You always want a very small amount in the tank since it is used in DNA production for living organisms. After this, I siphoned out as much cyano as I could. After 2 weeks, there is no visible cyano whatsoever.

Results: do not trust stated claims by manufacturers - always test. Products that use bacteria to outcompete cyano need to have a protein skimmer in order to work successfully (Chemiclean denies this but it is obvious). Cyano loves phosphate so dosing additional phosphate in tanks with slow plant growth will encourage cyano growth. Fish food will provide most of the additional ferts needed without adding them. Root tabs are recommended to source micro nutrients from the substrate without providing ferts directly to the water where algae/bacteria will make use of them before the plants do (in slower growing tanks). Many people have opinions about what works but investigate the science behind the biological processes to come to an accurate understanding.
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Thanks for your input cgjedi. Can you please explain "Products that use bacteria to outcompete cyano need to have a protein skimmer in order to work successfully (Chemiclean denies this but it is obvious)." It's not so obvious to me. Also, their product may contain bacteria-derived or plant-derived enzymes without containing live bacteria. Regarding the dying mosses, I wonder if that was due to some other factor than the Cyano. I have had Cyano grow in dense blankets over Java moss, Xmas moss, and other plants many times over many years, and the plants don't seem to be adveresly affected once the cyano sheet is removed. (Other than temporary lack of growth, of course). Some public water supply companies add phosphate as a pipe-corrosion-inhibitor, and some places have naturally high phosphate in groundwater. There's a huge phosphate mine in eastern North Carolina USA. Fortunately I live 100+ miles west and it doesn't affect my water supply.
 

cgjedi

New Member
Messages
8
There are several products that seem to operate in a similar fashion. You put some specific dose of powder in the tank, add aeration and do a significant water change after a certain time (usually 48 hours). If the results are not sufficient, then repeat until they are. These are the instructions listed on Chemiclean packaging. The product is safe for plants, fish, invertebrates and beneficial bacteria however, the aeration is important because the product will lead to low levels of oxygen in the water.

The strange thing is that Chemiclean doesn't list what the product actually is. Their customer support will not provide any further information other than to deny it is bacteria. But strangely the guy said he doesn't actually know what it is since only the heads of the company know what is in it. Also, he confirmed that several of their own tank tests were resistant to their product for unknown reasons. Once I heard that, all respect for them vanished. Now, I'm not saying it's a bogus product since many reviews confirm it does work. But like I mentioned before, most are for marine systems. What's the difference between fresh water and marine systems?

Another similar product is made by Dr. Tim's. When I contacted their customer support I got a totally different attitude. They confirmed that their product was bacteria based and that the lack of oxygen was due to the massive buildup of competing bacteria which targeted the cyanobacteria. This bacteria uses oxygen in respiration and locks up phosphate in the creation of DNA in cells. Cyano will not survive in these conditions. However, the big thing is that this massive bacteria load needs to be dealt with. If it remains and then starts dying off, the phosphate has not "disappeared" and will again feed a new round of cyano. This is the reason for the large water change that is required - refresh the oxygen levels AND lower the amount of bacteria in the water. Dr. Tim's recommend the use of a protein skimmer. This is specifically for removing the bacteria and actually is it's main function in an aquarium system. This, in my opinion, is why the reviews are much better for marine tanks since the majority of them have protein skimmers and a far fewer fresh water systems make use of one.

A note about tap water. This is an important consideration and was lacking in my previous post. I live in the north Pacific coast area where the tap water is very soft, no phosphates are added, no chloramine, no flouride, and very little chlorine. This is perfect Apistogramma water. So I know the buildup of phosphate was from the fish food - especially from the Hikari frozen blood worms.
 

Linus_Cello

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
276
Location
Washington DC
Minor tangent: you have no issues feeding your apistogramma blood worms? Some threads warn about feeding it more than once or twice a week.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
It really depends on where and how the bloodworms were collected/processed. They can contain disease baring organisms and heavy metals in some areas. Apistos will often gorge themselves on them (sort of like me on chocolate!) so don't over feed at any one time. Otherwise these are similar to part of the natural diet of wild apistos.
 

themountain

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
172
Location
Mallorca/Spain
. In another tank I dosed hydrogen peroxide with a large water change the next day. This had some effect but did not clear things up at all.
You tried it only one time?? And then you changed to that doubtful chemics?
Seriously I don't understand that people so against hydrogen peroxide...first it does not do any harm, it's cheap and completely fool proof.
But,OK , everybody has his own opinion.
 

cgjedi

New Member
Messages
8
I should have mentioned I waited several days to see any results. Like I mentioned there were some improvements but no where near what others were saying to expect. In case I didn't make the point clearly enough, none of these methods will work until the underlying cause is dealt with - specifically high concentrations of phosphate.
 

gerald

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
You tried it only one time?? And then you changed to that doubtful chemics?
Seriously I don't understand that people so against hydrogen peroxide...first it does not do any harm, it's cheap and completely fool proof.
But,OK , everybody has his own opinion.

H2O2 is one of my choice treatments too, but I wouldn't say it's "foolproof". If it's not thoroughly mixed at a safe dosage, you CAN kill fish. I've heard reports from a few different sources of fish getting a faceful of peroxide and dying within a day when aquarists have tried to spray it directly on algae with a pipette. The fish probably see the pipette and think "Yay! we're getting worms today!" and inhale a mouthful. It oxides (burns) gill tissue within seconds. I will reserve my judgement as to whether the fish or the aquarist is the "fool" in this case. Also i've noticed that H2O2 can injure mosses, Vallisneria, and some other plants if used at more than 3 ml per gallon (0.8 ml/ Liter).
 

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