Apistogramma Caetei Xingu?

[BoyScout]

Hi all -

I picked up a pair of these apistos last week - sold as A. Caetei Xingu - but referencing back on some earlier ID threads, others who had purchased under this same name may have had either A. Resticulosa or possibly A. cf. Taeniata "Xingu".

Photos aren't great quality I'm afraid. The female in partcicular looks a bit washed out. In the store she was in bright yellow dress and on a clutch of eggs - they soon got eaten when brought home to their new tank.

Another question - if these are A. Resticulosa - are they in some way related to the "Steel Blue" hybrids you see around the place?

Appreciate any advice...

Thanks

Niall

Male

Female

 

[Mike Wise]

Interesting fish. It shows many of the characteristics of species of the caetei-complex (narrow zigzag lateral band, abdominal streaks, robust body, low dorsal, round & cross-striped caudal fin) and Xingu-comples (wide even lateral band slightly widening toward caudal peduncle, no prominent 90° downward break in lateral band at Bar 7, robust (usually) body, low dorsal, round cross-striped (usually) caudal fin. On your fish, the 90° downward break of the lateral band on Bar 7 is not really well defined, but more like that on species belonging to other regani-group complexes. Additionally, your fish do not show the strongly cross-striped caudal fin typical of species in both the caetei- and Xingu-complexes. The caudal pattern on your fish is more like that seen on most species in the resticulosa-complex. Finally, the vertically elongated caudal spot is not presently known in any species of the 3 complexes above. So what do we have? We have a fish that shows the body and fin shape typically seen on caetei- & Xingu-complex species, a lateral band typical of caetei- (but no downward break on Bar 7) and resticulosa-complex species, a caudal fin pattern typical of resticulosa-complex species, and a caudal spot that has a shape like none found in any of these complexes. I would guess - based on these 3 photos only - that we are dealing with something new. In many respects it looks close to A. sp. Jabuti (Xingu-complex from lower Tapajós), but the lateral band and caudal spot are different. It also resembles A. sp. Macapá (caetei-complex, Amapa state), but the caudal fin pattern and caudal spot are different. I would like to see more photos of this fish.

 

[BoyScout]

Wow! This is why I love apistos. Thanks Mike for your detailed reply - it is much appreciated that you share your time and expert knowlege in helping out on the "ID question" threads.

I've attached some more photos, including some closeups of the male's caudal area. A couple of things I've noticed about the female - she gets a cheek stripe which then "appears" to run up through the eye, no sign of a forehead stripe. Also, she can get a prominent (small) spot along the lateral line - although I think it's too far forward to be a lateral spot?

More pics of the male:

More pics of the female:

Thanks again Mike!

Regards
Niall

 

[Mike Wise]

Can you tell us where you got these fish? Does anyone else have them?

 

[BoyScout]

Hi Mike -
My LFS was able to confirm today they came in from a shipment from Glaser, Germany. There were no accompanying notes indicating they were wild caught so we are working on the assumption that they are a German-bred relatively pure strain.
There is still one other pair in the LFS tank...

 

[HaakonH]

Strange, Glaser seem to have two different fish under the same name. Frank Schäfer sent me a picture of what they had as A.caetei Xingu a while ago, and they were not like these. He said he had some of them at home, quite colorless fish. I figured they were the Xingu population of taeniata, unlike these.

Haakon

 

[BoyScout]

Update:

Observed the two of them doing the love dance today. Her zig-zag lateral line was clearly defined and caudal spot was more prominent (photo doesn't do it justice at all). She is on eggs tonight. I expect to see her in full yellow breeding dress in a few days time...

 

[BoyScout]

The female has approx 30-40 fry at the moment - and she is alternating them between the small terracotta pot cave she laid the eggs in (above) and another ceramic structure from which she's excavated a heap of sand from.

She's yellowed up a bit and the male isn't getting involved in anything to do with the fry at all:

 

[Mike Wise]

Your female in brood dress looks very much like a population of A. taeniata. Her caudal spot is more oval and less vertically stretched than on the first photos of the male. I wonder if it is because the male is highly stressed (usually really helpful for ID) and the dark markings are highly expressed (expanded). This is the reason why it is better to see the actual fish in various emotional states for the best possible ID. I like Römer's Cichlid Atlases for this reason - many photos of the same species under different emotional states.

Haakon, do the last photos look more like the fish in Schäfer's photos?

 

[HaakonH]

I just took a closer look at the photos Frank sent me, and I think they may be the same fish. Niall's male is more developed and bigger, but the females look similar. Mike, I've emailed you Frank's pictures for you to compare

Haakon

 

[BoyScout]

Mike and Haakon - thank you so much for your continued input! Mike - I'd be interested to hear what you made out of Frank Schäfer 's photos (thanks Haakon)...

I decided this morning to err on the side of caution and removed the male from the Mum and fry. Took the opportunity to take another pic of him after being caught and netted (he's in a clear plactic transfer container acclimatising to his new tank so the photo isn't crystal clear). Obviously he's stressed out after being netted and his markings are evident... not sure it gives us anything more than the previous photos though:

Given the description he was sold as and your own determination are we thinking he might be an A. cf. Taeniata "Xingu"? (Is that a proper description?)

Cheers Niall

 

[BoyScout]

Quick vid of Mum and babies... happy days!

 

[Mike Wise]

After looking at Schafer's photos (thanks Haakon) and comparing them to the photos here, I agree with Haakon - they are the same species/form of A. taeniata.

 

[BoyScout]

Mike and Haakon - thank you both for your help on this - much appreciated...

Niall

 

[alexkona26]

Can you tell us where you got these fish? Does anyone else have them?

Hi, guys! I'm a new comer, just signed into the group from Milan, Italy. Yes, Mike I'm one of those who have a pair of these Apistos & I do believe these r from the A.resticulosa complex. I have these for about a year now & they are sold here as A. borelli blue. I am an Apistophile & consistently hunting for these jewels in this part. Nice to be in the group!

 

[regani]

I meant to contribute to this thread, but then I forgot.... I actually got the last pair of those fish from the same source as Niall (Boyscout) about two months ago. here are some more pictures of the male in different light conditions, if that helps to further confirm what exactly they are

the female was a bit shy, as there are still some leftover fry in that tank, so she didn't want to come to the front. with my somewhat flimsy camera the pictures are not great, but here are some of the better ones

I have higher resolution copies I can post/email if required.

Niall, I have some ~1 month old fry and would be more than happy to give away or swap some at some stage if you want to help keep that species here in Australia.

 

[Mike Wise]

Everything that I see on the fish point to it being a member or the resticulosa-complex. I'll stick with my guess that it is some population of A. taeniata.

 

[regani]

I'll use that species name for the fish then.
thanks for your input, Mike. and also to Haakon. it is very much appreciated

 

[Mike Wise]

May I suggest "A. cf. taeniata (Caetei-Xingu)"? In this manner, the name indicates the most likely species (A. cf. taeniata) and its commercial (but inaccurate) name (A. cf. caetei-Xingu).

 

[regani]

A. cf. taeniata (Caetei-Xingu) it is.