Species and sex id ?

[Frank Hättich]

This is a bit confusing but these pictures suggest that form ii does not have black petral fins and have maybe have a black dot in the middle:

Cheilinus Aquarium Photography

Apistogramma sp. “Ladislao II”

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and

Apistogramma sp. 'Rio Cenepa II'

Der farbenprächtige Cenepa Zwergbuntbarsch (Apistogramma spec. "Ladislao") ist eine faszinierende Rarität aus dem peruanischen Amazonasgebiet. Mit…

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The fish in the second link are Ladislao 1 not 2 (unfortunatly there is a lot of confusion with the naming of the species/forms). The black dot in the middle (= lateral spot) is shown by all the Ladislao-like as well as the black ventral fin edges (see above).

 

[anewbie]

The fish in the second link are Ladislao 1 not 2 (unfortunatly there is a lot of confusion with the naming of the species/forms). The black dot in the middle (= lateral spot) is shown by all the Ladislao-like as well as the black ventral fin edges (see above).

Is the black dot in the middle specific to the female ?

 

[Frank Hättich]

Is the black dot in the middle specific to the female ?

No. Females may show it more often and more pronounced, but I would not dare to identify a female just by the lateral spot.

 

[anewbie]

No. Females may show it more often and more pronounced, but I would not dare to identify a female just by the lateral spot.

Do any of these look like females:

This one i'm 98% sure is a male; i'm pretty sure the one directly above is female but the first two images not sure.

Also is there any way for me to id the fish if i do not know the location. I guess in this case assuming the seller id is correct it would be which form it represents ?

 

[Frank Hättich]

Do any of these look like females:

The photos are too blurry and I'm not particularly good in sexing, sorry.

This one i'm 98% sure is a male;

Me too.

Also is there any way for me to id the fish if i do not know the location. I guess in this case assuming the seller id is correct it would be which form it represents ?

If adult males don't show any caudal pattern it's most likely A. sp. Amaya. If they show a caudal pattern but no red markings on the head, they may be A. sp. Ladislao 2 but of course it might also be less colorful Ladislao 1 or 3. Afaik the naming of these forms by fishermen/exportes who know that there are different forms is not very reliable - maybe because they choose that name that gives the most money at that moment. But I think most fishermen/exportes won't even know that there are different forms at all.

 

[Frank Hättich]

For completeness: I forgot another Ladislao-like species/form called A. sp. Maca. From the few photos of them that I have seen, it seems that males show pronounced red markings on the head and that their caudal pattern is rerstricted to a fan-like area in the middle of the caudal fin (similar to that of A. flabellicauda).

 

[Mike Wise]

Also is there any way for me to id the fish if i do not know the location. I guess in this case assuming the seller id is correct it would be which form it represents ?

Not 100%. About the only way to be certain is with genetic sequencing, which hasn't been done on these populations.

 

[anewbie]

So a bit of update:
The ones sold as a. wolli remain extremely reclusive. I would say the females are around 1 inch maybe a bit less and the male are maybe 1/4 of an inch larger. One did die but i'm 95% sure it had a locked jaw and the jaw was locked when received. You can see it in the picture on page 1.
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Anyway what i sometime see are the a. wolli sometime come slightly above the driftwood - both females are bright yellow and one had frys this evening. Neither male hang near them. Bit surprise they could breed this young and the frys are extremely small - i wouldn't be surprise if they are smaller than the ones a. Pucallpaensis i have.
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The story is opposite for the ones sold as a. ladislao; they are less shy. I have two groups - one group is with the ivancara bimaculata. It took a long time for those to get settled since the i. bimaculata are much larger and a bit intimidating; though in truth they ignore the a. ladislao. The biggest problem is feeding since the i. bimaculata are among the worse when it comes to manners. This tank is much better structured with quite a bit of nook and cranny and for most of the first 2 or 3 weeks the apstio would stay undercover of driftwood, rocks and leaves so it took a while for me to determine if they were still alive. It is only recent they have become much more bold esp when eating. I'm curious to see how this play out long term but given the i. bimaculata interaction among themselves i'm optimistic this setup will work.
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The other pair is in a 40B with legacy guppies - these have coloured up quite nicely and are anything but shy. Both aquariums have 1 male and 2 female. I believe a pair has formed in the 40b as the pair is on one side and the extra female on the other side. Also the male has put on a lot of colouring in the tail and face. I should probably get a new picture. This tank is not well structured since it used to be a tap water aquarium for guppies and it was only recently converted in water chemistry. Also the substrate is not as fine as i would like - long term i might shovel everything out and redo it with pool filter sand (the i. bimaculata tank has this black stuff that is of similar texture of pool filter sand but higher density).
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Given pictures Mike has posted in the past i'm not sure the "a. wolli" are actual wolli but the male are so small it is hard to tell as they have not really developed strong features (which is partly why i'm shocked they bred). Also unlike a. ladislao they don't seem to have paired off per sey.
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The 4 a. wolli are in a 29 - there is a central piece of driftwood and what they have done is dug a lot of pits along the wood so that each has a little cave. also one of the male tends to hang out on the right side behind a leaf but otherwise visible (just not from the front).
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[Mike Wise]

A. wolli is one of my species-maintenance fish ever since I brought it back from Peru in 2012. My fish tend to hide only if someone other than myself is in the fishroom. Otherwise they are out in front looking for a good feeding. Your wolli are still young and can grow considerably. Right now one of my pairs is a male that is almost 4"/10cm TL and the female almost 3"/7.5cm. At the size your fish are they probably haven't colored-up completely. Confident and dominant females tend to always show a bright yellow/black, whether breeding or not. Yes, the fry are tiny. I breed mine in well seasoned tanks with a lot of algae/Java Moss to get the fry through the first few days when bbs are maybe too large for some to handle. I still feed bbs from day one. None go to waste since the adults love them, too.

 

[anewbie]

A. wolli is one of my species-maintenance fish ever since I brought it back from Peru in 2012. My fish tend to hide only if someone other than myself is in the fishroom. Otherwise they are out in front looking for a good feeding. Your wolli are still young and can grow considerably. Right now one of my pairs is a male that is almost 4"/10cm TL and the female almost 3"/7.5cm. At the size your fish are they probably haven't colored-up completely. Confident and dominant females tend to always show a bright yellow/black, whether breeding or not. Yes, the fry are tiny. I breed mine in well seasoned tanks with a lot of algae/Java Moss to get the fry through the first few days when bbs are maybe too large for some to handle. I still feed bbs from day one. None go to waste since the adults love them, too.

Is it normal for them to breed this small? The tank has abut 2 1/2 to 3 month of biofilm on the driftwood; not sure if the frys will eat that. I had the tank setup for a long time before receiving them with black neon and n marilynae (which have become my favorite of the pencil fishes i've tried); and yes the black neon were removed a couple of weeks ago - was just waiting for them to get large enough to put them in their target aquarium.

 

[Ben Rhau]

I have seen apistos breed at that size, though usually an adult with one of its offspring.

What do you like about the N. marilynae? I've been curious about them, but have never pulled the trigger.

Cheers

 

[anewbie]

I have seen apistos breed at that size, though usually an adult with one of its offspring.

What do you like about the N. marilynae? I've been curious about them, but have never pulled the trigger.

Cheers

1) they are a bit smaller 2) they form formation school at times 3) they seem to act as a group (not quite the same as schooling). The other pencil fishes i own tend to be a lot more individual scattering mess (talking about behavior). Of course i might just be imagining things.

 

[Frank Hättich]

Given pictures Mike has posted in the past i'm not sure the "a. wolli" are actual wolli but the male are so small it is hard to tell as they have not really developed strong features (which is partly why i'm shocked they bred).

Pictures of brooding females might be very helpful to decide whether they are in fact A. wolli, especially the shape of the caudal spot and the black markings on the chin and chest.

 

[anewbie]

Pictures of brooding females might be very helpful to decide whether they are in fact A. wolli, especially the shape of the caudal spot and the black markings on the chin and chest.

I'll try over the next few days; when i went into the room to do so now - they hid again - i could see them flying across the tank to their favorite hiding spot(s). I've debated several times removing the leaves and drift wood to make picture taking easier but don't think it is worth the stress.

here is an updated picture of the fish sold as a. ladisalo (male); the female i think he paired up with stays within 6 inches of him nearly all the time:


Other than the fact that he never sits still; he does not run from me nor does she. Even when i use a turkey blaster or similar for targeted treats they show any fright now that they have settled in (they did vanish the first 10 days or so as they settled in).

 

[Ben Rhau]

I'll try over the next few days; when i went into the room to do so now - they hid again - i could see them flying across the tank to their favorite hiding spot(s). I've debated several times removing the leaves and drift wood to make picture taking easier but don't think it is worth the stress.

Have you tried taking the picture when the room is completely dark and the tank lights are on? I have gotten pics of shy fish that way, but yours might be even more skittish.

 

[Ben Rhau]

1) they are a bit smaller 2) they form formation school at times 3) they seem to act as a group (not quite the same as schooling). The other pencil fishes i own tend to be a lot more individual scattering mess (talking about behavior). Of course i might just be imagining things.

That makes a lot of sense that you would prefer a lot of tetra species (in the other thread) since that's the behavior you find interesting. The more individual behavior is what turned me on to pencil fish.

 

[anewbie]

That makes a lot of sense that you would prefer a lot of tetra species (in the other thread) since that's the behavior you find interesting. The more individual behavior is what turned me on to pencil fish.

I'm pretty happy with my Hemiodus Gracilis; 'cept they are a lot more fragile than most tetra or pencil fishes; also a bit of a nervous fish.

Also this guy is pretty interesting (have 15 of them):

 

[anewbie]

@Frank Hättich @Mike Wise

Are any of these photo good enough to get a positive id on species ? I realize that a full profile image would be best but i had to take these from about 10 feet away as she would dart under the driftwood if i approached (abandoning her babies):



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I didn't take a photo but i did get a very good look at the male (the two males were sharing a vertical leaf with one on one side and the other on the other side (back/front of the aquarium). I'll try to get a photo but in truth there isn't much different than the pictures on page 1 (first post); as they have not coloured up at all at this size.

 

[Frank Hättich]

Are any of these photo good enough to get a positive id on species ?

I can't see the shape of the caudal spot clearly (which is typically "D" shaped in wolli females) nor the black markings on the chest, which should look like in this drawing (taken from Römer's scientific description of A. wolli):

However, that your female only shows a single lateral spot points towards A. wolli. If none of your fish ever showed two spots, they are almost certainly A. wolli.

 

[anewbie]

I can't see the shape of the caudal spot clearly (which is typically "D" shaped in wolli females) nor the black markings on the chest, which should look like in this drawing (taken from Römer's scientific description of A. wolli):

View attachment 15095
However, that your female only shows a single lateral spot points towards A. wolli. If none of your fish ever showed two spots, they are almost certainly A. wolli.

I'm very confused - i though the caudal spot was the spot just before the tail as shown in B3.jpg above. Your picture shows a belly picture so which spot are you calling a caudal spot ?
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update: I see i need to look at the belly to see if there is a spot near the head.