• Hello guest! Are you an Apistogramma enthusiast? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's a great place for Apisto enthusiasts to meet online. Once you join you'll be able to post messages, upload pictures of your fish and tanks and have a great time with other Apisto enthusiasts. Sign up today!

Species and sex id ?

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
Here are some new fishes I received; just want to verify the species (and sex if possible):

1)

n1.jpg


2)

n2.jpg



3)


n10.jpg


4)


n5.jpg



5)

n6.jpg


6)

n3.jpg
 

rasmusW

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
515
Are they all the same species? The first one looks a bit different than the others.
What was they sold as?

-r
 

Frank Hättich

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
657
Location
Germany
i don't say what they were sold as because it bias the identification.
Even if you would tell what they are supposed to be, the best positive answer you could expect based on these photos would be "possible". There are simply too many, too similar nijsseni-group species.
So not telling us what they are supposed to be, but expecting that we tell you exactly what they are is simply a joke!
Anyway, 1) & 3) could be A. sp. Ladislao (or one of the similar species), but this is just a wild guess given that almost no relevant diagnostic features are visible on the two photos. The other ones look like one of the species closely related to A. payaminonis (#5 might be a female).
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
Even if you would tell what they are supposed to be, the best positive answer you could expect based on these photos would be "possible". There are simply too many, too similar nijsseni-group species.
So not telling us what they are supposed to be, but expecting that we tell you exactly what they are is simply a joke!
Anyway, 1) & 3) could be A. sp. Ladislao (or one of the similar species), but this is just a wild guess given that almost no relevant diagnostic features are visible on the two photos. The other ones look like one of the species closely related to A. payaminonis (#5 might be a female).
The first one is suppose to be a. sp Ladislao; the others are suppose to be a. wolli but i would not be unhappy if they were a. payaminonis.

Sexing of the one that is suppose to be ladislao is pretty easy the ones that are suppose to be wolli is much more difficult and i'm not sure i was sent the correct sex.

I'll try to get better pictures of the fish that are suppose to be a. wolli right now they are all hiding. At least as of this evening neither species is very people friendly.
-
I was not trying to be whatever by not giving species they are suppose to be but was concern that by stating the species they were sold as that would influence the evaluation. I guess i'm more use to other types of fishes where the species are not so fluid (or similar).
 

Frank Hättich

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
657
Location
Germany
the others are suppose to be a. wolli but i would not be unhappy if they were a. payaminonis.
A. wolli is one of the species closely related to payaminonis, so it's very well possible that your fish are wolli. They are distinguished from payaminonis mostly by showing one lateral spot (instead of two), the shape of the females' caudal spot and some markings on the chin and chest area.
To exclude another closely related species (A. sp. D3): have they been imported from Peru?
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
A. wolli is one of the species closely related to payaminonis, so it's very well possible that your fish are wolli. They are distinguished from payaminonis mostly by showing one lateral spot (instead of two), the shape of the females' caudal spot and some markings on the chin and chest area.
To exclude another closely related species (A. sp. D3): have they been imported from Peru?
Asking the seller if he knows the catch location.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,385
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
The rounded corners on the container definitely distort the head!

One of my female A. wolli just came out with a brood. I'm always shocked at how small they are when they are first freeswimming!
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
The rounded corners on the container definitely distort the head!

One of my female A. wolli just came out with a brood. I'm always shocked at how small they are when they are first freeswimming!
Well this begs the question; is there a better way to get a good picture; i don't really like the idea of holding them up by the tail and trying to take a picture with the other hand; in the display tank I find it virtually impossible to get a decent picture between tannis and hiding area - for example the ortegai are virtually unidentifiable (different thread); i know there is a trick to this game since people do show decent pictures - maybe a bare bottom five for a couple of days?
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,385
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Think about a photo tank that is only a few inches wide. Another more popular option, like my avatar, gently push the fish to the front of the tank while photographing it with a decent camera.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
Think about a photo tank that is only a few inches wide. Another more popular option, like my avatar, gently push the fish to the front of the tank while photographing it with a decent camera.
Yea - i'll work on it - one of these days i'll get a real camera it is more of an issue of what system to buy into.
-
Since I released the wolli (5 fishes) in the 29 i only seen a few hint of them - definitely on the shy side at this stage. I'm very reluctant to move things in the tank as i don't want to stress them. I gotta stop putting the tanks so close to the wall so i can see from the back. Oh well - at least they are alive. The ones sold as a. sp Ladislao are showing almost no shyness. Maybe because they are a little older or maybe having to do with their native habitat.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,385
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
I have been keeping A. wolli since 2012. I find them one of the most out-going apistos, very confident when comfortable with their environment. Just give them time and they will appear whenever they see you. As for cameras, there are very few really poor quality cameras anymore. As for cell phones, well as you found they are not the ideal camera. They are replacements for "point and shoot" snapshots, but not for critical photographing. Actually reviewers claim that the sound quality of phone have gone down as more other abilities have been added. They are "a Jack of all trades, but a master on none".
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
I have been keeping A. wolli since 2012. I find them one of the most out-going apistos, very confident when comfortable with their environment. Just give them time and they will appear whenever they see you. As for cameras, there are very few really poor quality cameras anymore. As for cell phones, well as you found they are not the ideal camera. They are replacements for "point and shoot" snapshots, but not for critical photographing. Actually reviewers claim that the sound quality of phone have gone down as more other abilities have been added. They are "a Jack of all trades, but a master on none".
Ok. On the camera thing I'm leaning towards Sony but it is a matter of finding a good lens; part of the issue is the phone ability to zoom is convenient. there is also the connectivity issue; with the phone i can 'email' the pictures to myself to transfer them to the computer; but with the camera none of them are going to play nice with linux so moving one or two pictures to the computer is some what annoying. Maybe the newest models have improved. The other issue what i really want is a wide angel zoom macro - the lens issue for the camera is part of the issue - the nicest wide-angle zoom for sony is both my arms and a leg; Fuji is a little better in that department. The phone optics are ok but the sensor amplification is not very good in low light in part due to the size - anyway I'll bite the bullet one day and either get a fuji or sony - it is just a bit lower on my priority of things to address. I miss the days of film - and doing my on darkroom work (b&w).
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
625
Location
San Francisco
I think phones have very good cameras, but not for this type of shooting. A huge advantage of a separate camera is the ability to control the focal plane + fast autofocus. It's still not super easy, but it's virtually impossible with a phone.

Also, a camera will have a much more sensitive detector, which is needed for low light in tinted water.

I've found that a fixed macro lens (60 or 100mm) works well. I personally wouldn't find a wide angle zoom as useful for aquariums, especially with a deep tank like yours, because I tend to shoot with a larger aperture. I do love them for other types of photography, however. And the good ones are quite expensive.

The newer cameras do have bluetooth connectivity. I have found the camera apps (for Fuji) to be terribly designed, however, to the point where they're nearly unusable for me. So I just transfer the images from a card.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
I think phones have very good cameras, but not for this type of shooting. A huge advantage of a separate camera is the ability to control the focal plane + fast autofocus. It's still not super easy, but it's virtually impossible with a phone.

Also, a camera will have a much more sensitive detector, which is needed for low light in tinted water.

I've found that a fixed macro lens (60 or 100mm) works well. I personally wouldn't find a wide angle zoom as useful for aquariums, especially with a deep tank like yours, because I tend to shoot with a larger aperture. I do love them for other types of photography, however. And the good ones are quite expensive.

The newer cameras do have bluetooth connectivity. I have found the camera apps (for Fuji) to be terribly designed, however, to the point where they're nearly unusable for me. So I just transfer the images from a card.
So i take it you are using Fuji and not Sony - which camera/lens do you have ? I know fuji has a macro 30 and macro 60. Is the auto focus on the newer bodies good enough?

I will check into sony connectivity before making a decision - for me using usb or moving the memory card for one or two pictures is a bit of a pain - i already spend 4+ hours saturdays doing water changes and other fish stuff (cleaning socks and sponges); I just dont' want to muck with pulling out sd cards if i can avoid it.
-
I was kind of hopeful fuji would come out with a replacement for x-e4 but it seems like it will be another year before it is released.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
625
Location
San Francisco
I'm using very old Nikon cameras for the aquarium, and the autofocus has been sufficient. A D90 and D300 with a 60mm macro. No bluetooth connectivity on those. It does get confused sometimes as to what you're spot focusing on, because the fish are small and they move fast. It takes practice and patience.

I do have a Fuji X100t that I use for street/portraits/travel, so that's how I know the app is terrible. It's an older camera that doesn't have bluetooth, it uses wifi to connect. But there are reviews from newer users with bluetooth and they say it's just as bad. Great camera, though.

I've also been thinking about the X-E4 or whatever comes next. But I already have Nikon lenses.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
I'm using very old Nikon cameras for the aquarium, and the autofocus has been sufficient. A D90 and D300 with a 60mm macro. No bluetooth connectivity on those. It does get confused sometimes as to what you're spot focusing on, because the fish are small and they move fast. It takes practice and patience.

I do have a Fuji X100t that I use for street/portraits/travel, so that's how I know the app is terrible. It's an older camera that doesn't have bluetooth, it uses wifi to connect. But there are reviews from newer users with bluetooth and they say it's just as bad. Great camera, though.

I've also been thinking about the X-E4 or whatever comes next. But I already have Nikon lenses.
Yea - i sold all my old stuff - i always avoided nikon since nikon-usa was a horrible company for various reasons - cannon usa was much nicer and they always provided good service and assistance (I'm not talking about the quality of camera or lenses just the coporate policies and attitude). Anyway for a new system i think i will skip both companies. Enough off topic.
-
Hopefully the a. wolli will show themselves - i did pick up a mirror to look behind the tank.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
I was looking at Tom's website; and noticed the female for a. sp Ladislao has black petral fins and black on the start of the dorsal fin; is this a uniform trait that can be used to identify females ?

@Tom C @Frank Hättich

My vague understanding is that there are two catch location for a. sp ladislao so maybe the other one doesn't have the black ?
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,718
This is a bit confusing but these pictures suggest that form ii does not have black petral fins and have maybe have a black dot in the middle:
and
 

Frank Hättich

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
657
Location
Germany
I was looking at Tom's website; and noticed the female for a. sp Ladislao has black petral fins and black on the start of the dorsal fin; is this a uniform trait that can be used to identify females ?
In principle yes. Females show these black markings much more regularly and much more pronounced than males. The problem is that sneaker males also show them (to some exctend) and that these markings (like all other black markings) are mood dependent.
My vague understanding is that there are two catch location for a. sp ladislao so maybe the other one doesn't have the black ?
There are 4 similar forms/species: A. sp. Ladislao 1-3 and A. sp. Amaya. They show more or less differences in the caudal pattern and the markings on the head of the males and perhaps some in black markings of the females, like lateral spot/blotch, caudal spot and those on the head. However, to distinguish them savely, the exact catch location is needed in most cases. Black anterior edges of the ventral fins and blackend first few membranes of the dorsal fin are shown by females of all Apisto species (depending on mood).
 

Members online

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
18,163
Messages
118,540
Members
13,237
Latest member
Tautog

Latest profile posts

Ada_1022 wrote on hongyj's profile.
Hi I didn’t know if you still have any of the Apistogramma Cuipeua?
Would be interested if so.
Bill D. wrote on Apistoguy52's profile.
Looking for Dicrossus Maculatus. Do you have any?
Hi guys I'm new in this page, I'm having trouble with one of my apistogramma agassizii pairs the seem not to be coupling up , I'm using the exact same tank that I've use in the past to couple a pair successfully
jloponte wrote on hongyj's profile.
Please send me info regarding cuipeua. Thx, Joe.
jloponte wrote on hongyj's profile.
Where are you located?
Top