Copella callolepis disease

[PhilipAG]

Some time ago I saw two of my three male Copella callolepis with swollen gills.

This is how it all started, it didn't seem to get any worse untill 2 weeks ago.

DSC_0029 by Philip AG Shaw, on Flickr


I made a small video to let you guys see how it further developed:
DSC_0150 by Philip AG Shaw, on Flickr

Right now it's like this:
DSC_0208 by Philip AG Shaw, on Flickr


I've tried "Dactycid" from Colombo, but it doesn't seem to help. I used Dactycid because I thought of a infection by parasitic gillworms.
Some time before (when the symptoms were less visible) I tried "Bactopur" from Sera, because I thought it was some kind of bacterial infection.

All of the fish that are kept in this tank together with the C. callolepis are wild caught.

 

[gerald]

I wonder if it might be some kind of sporozoan or microsporidean parasite? (If so, then hopefully unique to Copella). If one looks like he's going to die, kill him and examine the gills with a good microscope. Letting a fish die naturally and then looking for diseases often doesnt work because so many things colonize the dying tissues.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I think they are thyroid tumours, you can treat them potassium iodide (KI) and iodine (they are caused by iodine deficiency). I used 10:1 KI to liquid iodine, from the link here <"Physical Changes"> to successfully treat some Dwarf Pencilfish.

cheers Darrel

 

[gerald]

Good call Darrell -- Would table salt with KI in it do the job? How quickly would you expect to see improvement?
I didn't realize fish could use I2 liquid; thought it had to be I- ions. BTW, the "physical changes" link doesnt work.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Good call Darrell -- Would table salt with KI in it do the job? How quickly would you expect to see improvement?
I didn't realize fish could use I2 liquid; thought it had to be I- ions. BTW, the "physical changes" link doesnt work.

I think the link should be <"Physical changes">. I wasn't sure about the iodine (I2), but I followed the "recipe", because we had both potassium iodide (KI) and iodine in the lab. chem store. I don't see why just potassium iodide wouldn't work.

I don't think there would be enough iodine in table salt (it is less than 0.01% KI), but you can get potassium iodide tablets from health stores etc.

From what I remember it was only about three weeks from adding the iodine to the tumour disappearing, I'd already lost two before some-one told me what the problem was, and I didn't hold about much hope for them.

cheers Darrel

 

[PhilipAG]

Thanks Gerald and Darrel for helping me out.

I came across thyroid tumours as a possible cause of their appearance, but most of the time I read about Monogenea (Dactylogyrus spp.) infecting the gills or some kind of bacterial infection (probarly secondary after infection by Flatworms).
So I ruled out that it could be carcenogenous since I didn't knew anyone who had treated their fish for this particular disease.

At this point I totally forgot about this as a possible after spending hours and hours of researching.

But now that you brought it back up (and having experienced it yourself with pencilfish) I looked at the link and did some further research it really looks this must be it. Since I'm still a student and don't have access to any chemicals, I decided to buy some Potassium Iodide online.

Like you guys said I would assume I'd need I- ions to help compensate the lack of I in the Thymus. So I don't quite understand why the addition of Iodine is needed. To create an excess of I- to K+? Or because it is more readily available as Lugol (without the Buffer)?

But anyway, I'd like to thank you guys for helping me out!
I've always found this domain of the hobby to be complicated in order to succesfully identify the real cause behind the symptoms.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I think the iodine (I2) might just be added to give a bit of colour to the solution, possibly so you can judge how much you've added from the water colour tint, or possibly purely cosmetically.

cheers Darrel

 

[gerald]

Maybe the non-iodized iodine is included as a reserve source to replenish the iodide ions as they're absorbed from the water? Just guessing; I don't know how readily I2 converts to I- ions in an aquarium, or if fish can uptake non-iodized I directly. (And yes, aquarists like color in their meds). If anyone figures out the effective target iodide ion concentration in the aquarium, please share. Scaling down that treatment recipe from National Fish Pharm's website (5 grams KI in 100 ml stock solution) is a bit cumbersome, and you'd need a whole lot of detary KI supplement to make it their way.

 

[PhilipAG]

I see.
A bit unnecessary it seems. Maybe they take up I2 as you say Gerald,. But my guess would be that it could be possibly harmful to the fish (reaction with fatty acids? Or is that a bit exagerated?)
My guess would also be that taking up I- as a cell is easier than taking up I2.

But how come they evolve cancer in our aquariums and I haven't seen any picture of a pencilfish specimen having this carcenogenous symptoms due to a lack of I? Because the amount of TDS in the wild is even way lower than in our aquaria.

 

[Mike Wise]

Maybe because in the wild sick fish are the first eaten?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

But how come they evolve cancer in our aquariums and I haven't seen any picture of a pencilfish specimen having this carcenogenous symptoms due to a lack of I? Because the amount of TDS in the wild is even way lower than in our aquaria.

Maybe because in the wild sick fish are the first eaten?

I don't know.

Mike is usually right, and I'm sure they would be eaten, but my suspicion would be that it is a diet issue as well, and in the wild they are eating a food/foods that supply sufficient iodine.

I think some crustaceans and algae are quite iodine rich (but possibly only marine ones?)

Edit: I think the wild iodine source might be <"insects"> that the fish are picking from the surface film.

cheers Darrel

 

[gerald]

It's also possible that the tumor could be triggered partly by a virus the fish acquired in captivity that doesn't occur in its native habitat. Anyway, please let us know how well the KI treatment works out for these guys. Meanwhile, try to keep them eating well. They might need very small foods (fresh-hatched Artemia, tiny mosquito larvae) in case the swelling interferes with their ability to swallow.

 

[PhilipAG]

Probably Mike, but I can't imagine every fish being eaten immediately when there's something wrong.

I agree with you Darrel, that could one of the causes. The Copella callolepis and Nannostomus mortenthaleri I've got have already some flies in the past, so it does seem that it could be part of their menu in the wild.

Gerald, yes indeed. There are multiple factors that the fish have to cope with in the wild. Here they are replaced by others.
Anyway, I'll have a close eye on them eating enough different kinds of food.
In a few days I'll get my new order of brine shrimp eggs, so I'll add the freshly hatched Artemia to their menu.

Since I had to buy the KI online (because of cost) I have to wait untill September before starting the treatment.
This makes me kind of nervous since one of them already has a demorfed mouth due to the tumour.



By the way, the other male I've got thought it was a good day to spawn. He always used to be the lowest ranked male, but he's seen the opportunity while the 2 other males have cancer.
Here a bad quality picture of the eggs still in the aquarium: (They laid the eggs on a floating Camellia leaf)
Copella callolepis eggs by Philip AG Shaw, on Flickr

 

[rr16]

I'm hoping to get some of these in the near future.
I've had some issues with Copella compta in the aquarium developing what appears to be a possible thyroid tumour. They get a growth on the lower jaw and the gills then push out, sometimes causing swelling at the base of one of the pectorals, often causing the fish to swim in circles. I wondered about a few things and suspected it may be thyroid.

 

[PhilipAG]

My fish never swim in circles but besides that, all symptoms you mention are the same I've witnessed here.

Today I started the treatment with KI (5g/100mL with 1mL dosage per 50L) in a seperate cycled and decorated 50L tank.
I hope I'll see some slight improvement the next 3-4 weeks.

The situation right now: (photos are taken of the fish that's in the worst condition of both)
DSC_0157 by Philip AG Shaw, on Flickr

DSC_0156 by Philip AG Shaw, on Flickr

"non-affected" side
DSC_0155 by Philip AG Shaw, on Flickr

"affected" side
DSC_0154 by Philip AG Shaw, on Flickr

 

[gerald]

ouch ... I hope the thyroid and gills aren't already too severely damaged, or infected with some secondary invader, for successful healing ... poor little guy. Hope it works.

 

[Happyfins]

I see.
A bit unnecessary it seems. Maybe they take up I2 as you say Gerald,. But my guess would be that it could be possibly harmful to the fish (reaction with fatty acids? Or is that a bit exagerated?)
My guess would also be that taking up I- as a cell is easier than taking up I2.

But how come they evolve cancer in our aquariums and I haven't seen any picture of a pencilfish specimen having this carcenogenous symptoms due to a lack of I? Because the amount of TDS in the wild is even way lower than in our aquaria.

Just wanted to add to this in the hope of clearing up some confusion. I am not a fish veterinarian but in humans tumours (growths) can develop in the thyroid gland due to iodine deficiency. These tumours (goitres) are not cancers and can be prevented by Iodine supplementation in salt but not cured by Iodine. However, the fact that Darrell cured his fish with Iodine suspecting the growths were due to Iodine deficiency might suggest that these could be fish goitres. Interesting. Iodine is not used as cancer treatment in humans unless it is radioactive.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

.... However, the fact that Darrell cured his fish with Iodine suspecting the growths were due to Iodine deficiency might suggest that these could be fish goitres. Interesting. Iodine is not used as cancer treatment in humans unless it is radioactive.

Yes I can confirm that the iodine treatment definitely reduced the size of the goitre.

This from <"WikiVet">

Iodine replacement therapy is beneficial if iodide deficiency is suspected........ Thyroxine has been used to restore the negative feedback on TRH and TSH production and has been successful in treating the goitre. The condition is often reversible, if the cause of the goitre can be identified and removed.

cheers Darrel

 

[gerald]

Nice find Darrel -- the WikiVet entry that you linked also lists bacterial byproducts, nitrite, and certain foods (cabbage, casava, canola) as possible culprits that interfere with iodide uptake and metabolism in fish, causing thyroid impairment and/or goitre. If iodide supplements aren't helping, then one of these other issues may need fixing.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Nice find Darrel -- the WikiVet entry that you linked also lists bacterial byproducts, nitrite, and certain foods (cabbage, casava, canola) as possible culprits that interfere with iodide uptake and metabolism in fish, causing thyroid impairment and/or goitre. If iodide supplements aren't helping, then one of these other issues may need fixing.

I had actually posted it before, but I didn't have any recollection of it, and found the link (on "this site") when I was "googling".

There was quite a lot on Shark keeping and Koi sites (which may account for the Cabbage etc link), but not much of it had any scientific content.

cheers Darrel