What is it and how do I kill it?

[tjudy]

OK.. I am frustrated with this ailment. Take a look at the images of these P. taeniatus and notice the littel black/gray blotches. They come an go. They move positions. Anibiotics will reduce them, but they always come back. Other fish in my room have this ailment as well, including some Crenicichla and Cryptoheros species. No other westies have it. Other than being ugly, however, it does not seem to affect the fish. This pair has even spawned with the blotches.

 

[fishgeek]

black spots are seen with digenean flukes neascus
when they erupt throug the skin they irritant the pigment cells directly leading to the colour
i think they are not significantly dangerous as fis are an intermediate host for them
can cause enough damage to allow secondary infections to weaken fish

praziquantel is suggested in one of my references
i think and this is just off the top of my head flubenol maybe effective also


otherwise thats about all i can think of for black spots

 

[tjudy]

Thanks.. I will treat for flukes and see what happens. I might go through the whole fish room. What would the other host be? Likely a snail...?

 

[fishgeek]

yes a snail is a likely culprit for infecting the fish
or prehaps it has come into your fish room through wild caught acquistions

andew

 

[blueblue]

Hi Ted, this is what hobbyists in Hong Kong called "Black spot disease".
I have read many articles which mention all kinds of causes (from bacteria, virus, to even special chemicals...). One method that some people here in Hong Kong find to be helpful is to feed the infected fish with vitamin enriched bbs, together with more frequent change of water. It is proposed that the black spots will gradually fade out after some weeks...

On the other hand, there are also some serious cases that ALL fish
in multiple tanks get infected after introducing an infected fish!!
(probably it is a problem with the use of a common net for all fish and tanks).

please see the following for a very seriously infected fish of a hobbyist (Called ManPo) in Hong Kong :

 

[tjudy]

The disease that we call 'black spot' is different. It is a parasite that does nto seem to harm the fish, and has a bird as an intermediate host. Wild fish for SA, especially A. cacatuoides in my experience, frequently get it. The differences are that the black spots in 'balck spot' are darker and last a lot longer. On my fish the spots erupt and then disappear for a couple days adn then come back.

I have some prazi-pro arriving today or tomorrow. Enough to treat the whole fish room a couple times over. I am also getting some metrodinazole, and i have levamisol. Over the next couple weeks the fishroom is gonna get DEBUGGED. Then I am going to start a STRICT quarantine policy. That means large orders of fish may be a thing of the past unless I set up another rack... guess I need another rack!

 

[fishgeek]

blue's picture shows pigmentation on the fins, this would not occur with eruptons of parasites from musculature(as metacercaria/neasus)

metacercarial nodules usually are slightly raised aswell

andrew

ted where do you source your praziquantel ? what formulation is it provided in
i can only seem to find it as droncit dog wormer in england

thanks

 

[blueblue]

Thanks Ted and Andrew for the sharing...
Just to clarify, do you mean that there are two diseases?
(One with some smaller black spots that would disappear and re-appear
from time to time; and the other one with some ever increasing black spots?)

What are the best treatments for them? Are they related? Thanks.

 

[fishgeek]

i think ted and i are talking about the same "black spot" due to larval stage's of an organism erupting through the musculature and skin of the fish

what i see in the picture you linked has pigmentation on the fin's this is not what i would expect with metacercarial eruption throuh the skin

as an aside differing species of this family of parasites(digenean flukes) a bit like camallanus it is suggested they are complex life cycle organisms and so shpouldn't be a problem in the hobbysits aquaria
i know for camallanus it is suggested that perhaps a direct life cycle can be assumed

andrew

 

[tjudy]

There is an aqarium product called Prazi-pro. My bottle will be here soon and I will get a manufacturer's name for you. I also purchased the uncut praziquantel by the same seller. It is dry and very concenrated, but keeps on the shelf longer. I bought two ten-gram units that are supposed to treat 500 gallons each.

The black spots in BlueBlue's picture do not go away, but the fish are not harmed. THE second generation will not inherit the parasite.

 

[blueblue]

Thanks Andrew and Ted.

Ted: I also got a fish that has a symptom that looks quite close to your fish, is it having the same problem as your fish's?
Thx ^.^

 

[tjudy]

Do the spots come and go? If so, maybe yours have the same problem.

 

[blueblue]

Do the spots come and go? If so, maybe yours have the same problem.

hmm.. actually, the black spots seem to be increasing slowly...
when i first acquired it, it only got a few spots, and it has got much more
now..

 

[tjudy]

The praziquantel showed up yesterday. It is made by AquaScience here in the USA. I bought it from Jehm Co (www.jehmco.com. If you are not in this country you might write John there a note asking if he can legally mail it to you.

10 grams dry powder treats 1000 gallons. THe product is designed for ponds. The instructions call for shaking into a quart of dechlorinated water (I used RO) adn distributing evenly around the pond. I do nto have a pond. I am shaking it into a liter of water and will treat my tanks at 1 mL/gallon. That liter should treat 1000 gallons.

There is a problem though. The product does not dissolve well at all. It forms a slurry. What I do not know is if the solid parts of the slurry are medication or inert components. After shaking for five minutes a lot of stuff floats very quicky to the top. There is no way that I would be able to ge a mL out before the slurry separates (yes I know, if it separating that quickly it is not really a slurry yet).

 

[tjudy]

They way to get praziquantel to make a usable slurry: suspend the dry chemical in as pure a grain alcohol as you can get, then dissolve that into the water. I am using 95% alcohol (190 proof Ever Clear).

I used about 30 ml of alcohol then finished off the solution with 970 ml of water to make the liter I will use. At a doasge rate of 1 ml/gallon the alcohol should not have a negative affect on the fish. Just to be safe I will dose the pink convicts first...

If I have a whole lot of eggs tomorrow... I will know the alcohol has done its job.

 

[fishgeek]

ted i did not see praziquantel on the page you linked and when searched came up empty aswell?
i am away for a week and would appreciate if you could guide me a little more
thanks
andrew

 

[tjudy]

It is on this page... almost at the bottom of the table.

http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/WATER_TREATMENTS_ETC_/Medications/medications.html

 

[aspen]

i've seen references to using acetone for prazi as well. here's one:

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/acetone.shtml

 

[tjudy]

John at Jehm Co and I talked about it. He mentioned acetone as well, but the alcohol works too and seems like a safer option to me. Acetone is pretty nasty stuff.

 

[blueblue]

John at Jehm Co and I talked about it. He mentioned acetone as well, but the alcohol works too and seems like a safer option to me. Acetone is pretty nasty stuff.

So we could use alcohol to treat the infected fish? If yes, what is the dosage and method? Please advise.