water hardness

[fishgeek]

another thought whilst groing out some rams

i know discuss breeders always suggest having harder water (than breeding values) for growing out there fry
something about calcium levels and skeletl deformity
what do those here thing about water for wrigglers through to fry

i know i have read something about possible better longer finnage in softer water's
and to my logic calcium levels f water should have minimal bearing on calcium and phosphate ratio of diet, which is where i would have assumed bone density is sourced from, who knows maybe fish do absorb more water borne minerals

any thoughts
at present i am changing straight r/o either once or twice daily , as time permits and the fish appear to be doing quite well
other than one fry lost to circling i cant say i have lost any/many at this point 4 weeks approx from layig egg's

andrew

 

[tjudy]

My understanding is that the calcium used by fish is obtained both from food and water... probably more from food. THat being said, I harden teh water on fry as soon as they are free swimming by adding harder water to the bredign tank when I do water changes. When I remove fry to growout tanks I increase water hardness again. I am breeding in water with a KH of <2, by the time teh fry are pulled the KH in that tank will be 3-4. The KH in the growout tanks is 4-6.

I had a problem with a spawn of albino kribs last fall where about 50% had spine deformities. I was not hardening water on them as I grew them, planning instead to get them to size then harden the water prior to selling/giving them away. Since switchig to harder water earlier I have all but eliminated (maybe 2-3 out of a spawn of 50) the problem. My case may be a result of a too far inbred pair combined with soft water. I have since repaired the adults with unrelated fish, but I do not plan to test growing any out in soft water.

 

[Cathy G]

Hi Ted,
Remember when Ted and I visited your fish room a few months ago? Up until that time I had been growing out my ram fry in soft water. After we spoke I began hardening their water very slowly after they hit the 3-4 week mark. So far I haven't seen much difference between the two batches of ram fry.

However, the ram fry in the harder water now has the most gastly coloration. It could be just a freak thing, but these guys have no color save the dark horizontal stress markings... Needless to say I have been slowly softening their water again, and making them eat one meal a day of spirolina. I also haven't fed these guys chopped up red worms like I fed the soft water batch, perhaps that has made a difference.

As for food sources of calcium? What about frozen daphnia? I fed it to all my fry once/day. (Is this a good source?)

Oh, only one other thing to report. I have Bolivian fry still in with their parents in soft water. They are already showing their black spiked dorsal fins and staking out territory. They have grown the fastest of all my batches of fry - they are only 3 weeks old.

I'd be very interested in the upshot of all this discussion. And if anyone has any good calcium food sources -

Cathy G
(Oh, Andrew - if you have blue ram fry, go very slow with any changes...you probably already know this though...)

 

[tx_mike]

KH vs GH

I've played around w/ water hardness alot over the past year or so. Following are my observations -

1) KH doesn't matter, except for providing buffer against ph crashes, I do 50% water changes every other day so that's not a factor in my tanks

2) GH does matter, I've tried breeding fish in straight DI water and the females almost always die after breeding or attempted breeding. I run the GH from .5 degrees to about 2 degrees.

3) Ph usually doesn't matter too much, trying to get water w/ a KH of 0 and a GH of .5 down to a ph of 5 or less (and stable) is real tough. On some fish such as Ram fry I've found ph to be critical, if I meet my target ph for egg hatch to free swimming my success rate jumps to over 95% of the eggs.

4) Water changes matter!!!!! My fish are very large, have huge fins, lots of color and very few problems w/ disease or parasites. Also breed like rabbits.

5) Stability matters, fish are usually much happier in stable conditions that don't meet the parameters we read in books than in conditions that are bouncing all over the place because we are trying to exactly duplicate the conditions that these fish experience in the wild.

6) Patience matters, I've found going slow, making small occasional changes and not driving my fish crazy w/ "new stuff - great ideas" works best. Give them good water, good food and a reasonable place to live and usually nature will do the rest.

Disclaimer - this stuff works for me, that doesn't mean it's the right thing for you or that it's better than your way.