Too Soft?

[Linds6292]

Hi,

I have read a lot of posts talking about people preparing water for their Apisos. However, most aren't fortunate enough to have soft water out of the tap, so people are mixing RO and tap water to get the right mix. Some use only RO water.

My tap water is very soft. Below is the average analysis from the water company that delivers to my house.

Parameter	Conc. mg/L
Calcium	6​
Conductivity (uS/cm)	88​
Hardness	20​
Magnesium	1.2​
Potassium	0.75​
Sodium	5.5​

My question is: is that too soft? 'Too soft' is obviously a relative term, but I mean too soft to be used indefinitely for my apistogrammas and blue rams. Would it be a good idea to add some GH powder to my water? KH?

I've read some reports from various rivers suggesting that hardness depends on the season, which makes sense if there are seasonal changes in volume ad flooding etc. The soft water rivers aren't 0 hardness like RO. Some seem to get up a bit.

I mean calcium and other ions are essential for the healthy function of all fish and plants we grow. Plants can't get these from their 'food' as fish can. So if not the fish, the plants should benefit.

Added to this, if I'm using leaves and wood in my tanks is this softening the water even more? Some people say they do and some they don't change the hardness.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Welcome.

My question is: is that too soft?

No, it is absolutely fine. It is much easier to add things to water than to take them away. If you want to add a very small amount of carbonate hardness (dKH) you can use potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3), it widely available for culinary use and the calculation is here <"James' Planted Tank">.

1.8g KHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH

Would it be a good idea to add some GH powder to my water? KH?

If you have plants you will need to add a small amount of magnesium (Mg) for the plants. Your tap water is likely to supply some calcium (Ca++) ions, because you have ~90 microS conductivity.

The soft water rivers aren't 0 hardness like RO.

<"The Rio Negro"> etc won't have any hardness at all and conductivity values in single figures. If you want to keep "black water" fish you need really soft water.

This is from @Tom C web page <"Collecting A. bitaeniata in Pebas">.

The water:
pH: 4,71, Conductivity: 12 microSiemens/cm, T: 26,6 °C

Added to this, if I'm using leaves and wood in my tanks is this softening the water even more? Some people say they do and some they don't change the hardness.

No, they won't have much effect on hardness, but they will supply essential tannic and humic substances. I regard structural leaf litter as absolutely essential in a soft water tank. This is another of <"Tom's photos">.

Have a look at <"All the leaves are brown">. I'm sure @rasmusW won't mind me saying this, but I think <"his tanks"> are about perfect.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

I have little to add.

I even cut my tap (similarly soft) with RO to get it even softer and take the botanicals significant effect on the pH. While leaves don't lower hardness, they can lower pH by 0.5 - 1 pH-points provided KH is at more-or-less zero and when used in abundance as a leaf litter bed.

 

[Linds6292]

Hi all,
Welcome.

No, it is absolutely fine. It is much easier to add things to water than to take them away. If you want to add a very small amount of carbonate hardness (dKH) you can use potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3), it widely available for culinary use and the calculation is here <"James' Planted Tank">.

If you have plants you will need to add a small amount of magnesium (Mg) for the plants. Your tap water is likely to supply some calcium (Ca++) ions, because you have ~90 microS conductivity.

<"The Rio Negro"> etc won't have any hardness at all and conductivity values in single figures. If you want to keep "black water" fish you need really soft water.

Thanks for the reply Darrel. Yes, I know it's much better to have soft water to start and that I can add hardness. I can dose epsom salts for Mg. Yes, you're right, the table the water is 6ppm Ca (which I assume will be in ionic form). I was just worried that was too little for the health of plants and perhaps fish. But I'm happy if that's not the case. Suits me to use straight tap water.

It came about because I have a ram in my tank at work with hole in the head. I read an article suggesting that water deprived of cations will have an unbalanced redox system and leads to problems. I was also researching salt treatment for such problems and if rams could handle it.

This is from @Tom C web page <"Collecting A. bitaeniata in Pebas">.


No, they won't have much effect on hardness, but they will supply essential tannic and humic substances. I regard structural leaf litter as absolutely essential in a soft water tank. This is another of <"Tom's photos">.

Have a look at <"All the leaves are brown">. I'm sure @rasmusW won't mind me saying this, but I think <"his tanks"> are about perfect.

cheers Darrel

Very interesting reads. Thanks.

 

[Linds6292]

I have little to add.

I even cut my tap (similarly soft) with RO to get it even softer and take the botanicals significant effect on the pH. While leaves don't lower hardness, they can lower pH by 0.5 - 1 pH-points provided KH is at more-or-less zero and when used in abundance as a leaf litter bed.

I'm stepping lightly with the leaves after the last scare I had with them (that you replied to). Also, it's only getting towards autumn here so I have to wait to collect a supply. I have plenty of loquat leaves, but I'm slightly scared off them. Maybe I'll try again with an airstone.

However, I may have been scared for nothing with my male Macmasteri. I thought he was ill and that's why the female was chasing him. However, I have noticed what I thought looked like breeding behaviour but wasn't sure if I had a male and female or two males. I was going to post some pictures tonight to check. I got home and saw him hiding behind the heater and though he was sick again. Then I looked and there she was with a cloud of fry. So now I know. Maybe last time she had eggs/fry and I didn't see. I have now removed him.

So my water chemistry must be ok.

 

[MacZ]

I'm stepping lightly with the leaves after the last scare I had with them (that you replied to). Also, it's only getting towards autumn here so I have to wait to collect a supply. I have plenty of loquat leaves, but I'm slightly scared off them. Maybe I'll try again with an airstone.

As long as you add them in batches everything is fine. Loquat is safe, provided the leaves are brown. But why the airstone?

The females have a bright yellow coloration with strikingly black markings when ready to breed and while raising fry. I call it wasp-mode. No mistaking if that can be seen.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Congratulations on the fry. I've used <"Loquat leaf (Eriobotrya japonica)"> without any problem as well.

I read an article suggesting that water deprived of cations will have an unbalanced redox system and leads to problems. I was also researching salt treatment for such problems and if rams could handle it.

Hard alkaline water is likely to have a higher REDOX value (ORP). If you are keeping Tanganyikan Goby Cichlids, from the surge zone, it probably is as simple as "higher REDOX = better", otherwise I'm not so sure.

There is a much fuller explanation at <"UKAPS: REDOX -why don't we.....">.

I'm <"not a salt fan">, so personally I'm never going down that route. Have a look at Joe Gargas's article <"Water Chemistry: Osmoregulation....."> (from page 7. in the link.)

You will need some-one else to advise you about "Hole-in-the-head" it isn't a problem I've ever had (touch wood).

cheers Darrel

 

[Tom C]

Gargas's article <"Water Chemistry: Osmoregulation....."> (from page 7. in the link.)

Joe Gargas
"...Nitrification slows down at a pH of 6.5 and will stop below 6.0."

Thank you for the interesting article, Darrel.
But obviously they had no knowledge about Ammonia-oxidizing archaea (OAO) at that time (2009)

(In case there are readers here who are not familiar with Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea (OAO): Joe Gargas's claim that nitrification stops at low pH is wrong!)

 

[yukondog]

I have been using Loquat leaves for yrs., I have had no problems, but I do not use any ferts or insecticides on my plants.

 

[MacZ]

Thank you for the interesting article, Darrel.
But obviously they had no knowledge about Ammonia-oxidizing archaea (OAO) at that time (2009)

(In case there are readers here who are not familiar with Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea (OAO): Joe Gargas's claim that nitrification stops at low pH is wrong!)

I'm with you with the OAO, just a little correction: Nitrification BY BACTERIA still stops at these pH-readings as long as the tank only holds Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter.

OAOs are present in less acidic tanks and filtermedia but not immediately in necessary numbers, so when going down with pH the tank has to cycle again in low pH so OAOs (and others) can take over the work of the beneficial bacteria.
And in my experience it takes ages for the OAOs to completely establish and take over. A reason why I advice people to go slowly down with pH unless the fish coming in demand immediately low pH (like wild caught imports). At least luckily ammonia is relatively harmless in low pH as we all know. What helps loads is a good layer of plantbased mulm.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

But obviously they had no knowledge about Ammonia-oxidizing archaea (OAO) at that time (2009) ....
(In case there are readers here who are not familiar with Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea (OAO): Joe Gargas's claim that nitrification stops at low pH is wrong!)

Yes, it is right at the start of the use of RNA/DNA to search for the genes for ammonia oxidation. I didn't have any proof, but I had always suspected that the traditional view of <"nitrification wasn't right">, mainly on evolutionary/ecological grounds. Now the <"past is a different country">, away from fishkeeping forums, where the bacteria (that don't exist in out filters), still need high ammonia and pH, despite the fact all the scientific literature suggests entirely the opposite. I'll be quite honest it is one of those things like Donald Trump or BREXIT that make no sense in a rational world.

I'm with you with the OAO, just a little correction: Nitrification BY BACTERIA still stops at these pH-readings as long as the tank only holds Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter. OAOs are present in less acidic tanks and filtermedia but not immediately in necessary numbers, so when going down with pH the tank has to cycle again in low pH so OAOs (and others) can take over the work of the beneficial bacteria.

Cycling is a really contentious issue, and a lot of mythology (and products), have built up around it. I have a <"very jaundiced view"> of a lot of comment about cycling.

The issue is that those bacteria just aren't relevant in our tanks and they've even found that the situation is much more complex in waste water treatment. Aquarium nitrification is carried out by <"COMMAMOX Nitrospira, cannonical NO2- oxidising Nitrospira and a suite of ammonia oxidising Archaea">.

I've dipped back into UKAPS, partially because Dr Tim Hovanec was kind enough <"to answer a few questions we had">.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Cycling is a really contentious issue, and a lot of mythology (and products), have built up around it. I have a <"very jaundiced view"> of a lot of comment about cycling.

Honestly, I learned "cycling" 25 years ago (in Germany back then and still today socalled "fish-less cycling" is standard) and never used any products for it. I just waited until nitrates showd up in my tests and that was about it.
When starting to get into blackwater I was confronted with the info the usual bacteria won't work in low pH, looked that up, found the info helpful for people that don't have a blackwater tank, that found themselves having nitrification stop or slow down the more acidic their tanks got. But I only found it marginally interesiting to myself. Then I found it took far longer to get nitrate readings in an acidic pH tank and that's about it.

 

[Tom C]

...OAOs are present in less acidic tanks and filtermedia but not immediately in necessary numbers, so when going down with pH the tank has to cycle again in low pH so OAOs (and others) can take over the work of the beneficial bacteria....

The title says the most important:

(https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023281)

And they did not examine acid tanks:

Their conclusion was:

... Nitrification BY BACTERIA still stops at these pH-readings as long as the tank only holds Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter.

I would not rely on Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter:

(https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2017.00101/full#B23)

 

[MacZ]

The title says the most important:

(https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023281)

And they did not examine acid tanks:

I was only aware of archeans working mostly in acidic conditions. This is explaining A LOT of what I experienced.

I would not rely on Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter:

I do not at all anyway. Thought you meant Gargas was only referring to those.

Is it possible we somewhat missed each other's points before?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I do not at all anyway. Thought you meant Gargas was only referring to those.

Is it possible we somewhat missed each other's points before?

Have a look at the linked threads (<"on UKAPS">) they give much more detail about nitrification and link into a lot more scientific references (like the Sauder et al. paper that @Tom C linked) from aquaculture and studies of the natural environment.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Hi all,

Have a look at the linked threads (<"on UKAPS">) they give much more detail about nitrification and link into a lot more scientific references (like the Sauder et al. paper that @Tom C linked) from aquaculture and studies of the natural environment.

cheers Darrel

Thanks, will do.

 

[Linds6292]

As long as you add them in batches everything is fine. Loquat is safe, provided the leaves are brown. But why the airstone?

The females have a bright yellow coloration with strikingly black markings when ready to breed and while raising fry. I call it wasp-mode. No mistaking if that can be seen.

When I used the loquat leaves in a bucket to prepare my water change water, I added it to a couple of tanks and lost fish. I think it was you that said I need to add an airstone to the bucket because the leaves reduce the oxygen. I thought it was ammonia because I had high readings in this water, but the test seemed to react with the tannins and they are the same colour as the test as well.

 

[Linds6292]

Hi all,
Congratulations on the fry. I've used <"Loquat leaf (Eriobotrya japonica)"> without any problem as well.

I saw them on tannin.com and I have one in my front yard, so I'm glad.
Thanks for the reading.

 

[MacZ]

When I used the loquat leaves in a bucket to prepare my water change water, I added it to a couple of tanks and lost fish. I think it was you that said I need to add an airstone to the bucket because the leaves reduce the oxygen. I thought it was ammonia because I had high readings in this water, but the test seemed to react with the tannins and they are the same colour as the test as well

Aaaaahhh. I remember. I was confused, because I didn't see the link in your post above here. Got trouble recognising user names sometimes.