Theorycrafting : 29g Community Tank

[Memeboi]

So I plan to breed my A.borellii pair in the near future, obviously a 10g is not enough for 10-30 some fry, and I will need a grow out tank. Thankfully, I have an empty 29g tank, which I plan to use for growing out. After I grow out the fry I plan to keep a few, say 3-6 of them, Obviously I will need to do alot of planting to minimize aggression, as well as having some dithers. Basically I have a few questions

1. How to best minimize aggression.
2. What to stock in this tank, currently I am thinking of ember tetras.
3. What plants to use.
4. (this is the big question) How would the substrate to work out, I will of course be using first and formost a thin sand substrate for when it is just the fry, but I am currently thinking that I would slowly add aquasoil for the sake of more plants, is this viable?

 

[MacZ]

(this is the big question) How would the substrate to work out, I will of course be using first and formost a thin sand substrate for when it is just the fry, but I am currently thinking that I would slowly add aquasoil for the sake of more plants, is this viable?

Plants can grow in sand just as well. Spend the money on useful stuff instead of soil.

What plants to use.

Stemplants that can grow high and form cover at the surface like Egeria, thickets of Helanthium or Staurogyne. And of course all kinds of floaters (Limnobium, Salvinia, Hydrocotyle) or coverers like Nymphaea. But for structure I wouldn't just bet on plants. It takes time to really grow in.

What to stock in this tank, currently I am thinking of ember tetras.

Any tetra in that size category. Maybe some small catfish like Ototyropsis.

How to best minimize aggression.

Structure and population management (sex ratios). Always be able to separate the fish.

 

[anewbie]

The problem with soil; beyond cost is you never know what it can leach. This is one of my aquariums; a 29 with inert substrate; and while I suppose plants could be made to grow faster and denser; and they do in my co2 inject aquarium (not pictured); I think they still fill out just fine without soil:


Personally I would breed the borelli in the 29 and then move the frys to the 10 when the parents abandon them. Be sure to include lots of driftwood and small rocks in the bottom as well as leaf liter for the fishes to hide. I use this aquarium as sort of a mis mash of stuff i don't know where to put - In case you are wondering the angel in it are runts so they won't get much larger... You know not much you can do with a runt angel as you can't really pass it on to someone else and they aen't able to compete with the larger ones... gotta put them somewhere to pass the time.

 

[Memeboi]

The problem with soil; beyond cost is you never know what it can leach. This is one of my aquariums; a 29 with inert substrate; and while I suppose plants could be made to grow faster and denser; and they do in my co2 inject aquarium (not pictured); I think they still fill out just fine without soil:
View attachment 12099

Personally I would breed the borelli in the 29 and then move the frys to the 10 when the parents abandon them. Be sure to include lots of driftwood and small rocks in the bottom as well as leaf liter for the fishes to hide. I use this aquarium as sort of a mis mash of stuff i don't know where to put - In case you are wondering the angel in it are runts so they won't get much larger... You know not much you can do with a runt angel as you can't really pass it on to someone else and they aen't able to compete with the larger ones... gotta put them somewhere to pass the time.

My 10g has somthing the fry need, Malm, I don't have any starter food, just BBS for when they are big enough, so at the start they will probably eat the small crustaceans in the tank that thrive off of it

 

[Memeboi]

The problem with soil; beyond cost is you never know what it can leach. This is one of my aquariums; a 29 with inert substrate; and while I suppose plants could be made to grow faster and denser; and they do in my co2 inject aquarium (not pictured); I think they still fill out just fine without soil:
View attachment 12099

Personally I would breed the borelli in the 29 and then move the frys to the 10 when the parents abandon them. Be sure to include lots of driftwood and small rocks in the bottom as well as leaf liter for the fishes to hide. I use this aquarium as sort of a mis mash of stuff i don't know where to put - In case you are wondering the angel in it are runts so they won't get much larger... You know not much you can do with a runt angel as you can't really pass it on to someone else and they aen't able to compete with the larger ones... gotta put them somewhere to pass the time.

Also your tank is amazing, I love the java fern

 

[Mike Wise]

I'm confused. You want a grow-out tank, but also want other fish in it?? My grow-out tanks basically are simple substrate I use in all my tanks, a sponge or matten filter and a LOT of short sections of PVC pipe for hiding in. I find plants just make it more difficult to catch fish when you want to move them. More often than not fish hide in the pipe so just netting the pipe and dumping the fish is a lot easier than chasing them through a weed patch. For me grow-out tanks are for growing out fish and looking pretty is not part of the process.

 

[Memeboi]

I'm confused. You want a grow-out tank, but also want other fish in it?? My grow-out tanks basically are simple substrate I use in all my tanks, a sponge or matten filter and a LOT of short sections of PVC pipe for hiding in. I find plants just make it more difficult to catch fish when you want to move them. More often than not fish hide in the pipe so just netting the pipe and dumping the fish is a lot easier than chasing them through a weed patch. For me grow-out tanks are for growing out fish and looking pretty is not part of the process.

The plan is to breed the fish (im actually thinking I will do it in the 29), then grow out the fry, then sell off most of them (keep a few and probably the parents) and then turn the 29 into a planted community tank, basically a more community oriented, non breeding version of Samala's Borellii colony (link to that thread) https://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/borellii-colony.24191/

 

[Mike Wise]

Good luck, but I doubt it will ultimately be successful. To paraphrase the movie Jaws, "I think we need a bigger tank". On another note, how do you prevent groups with both males and female from breeding? I've had 'grow-outs' breed in my grow-out tanks. It can cause stress among the fish.

 

[Memeboi]

Good luck, but I doubt it will ultimately be successful. To paraphrase the movie Jaws, "I think we need a bigger tank". On another note, how do you prevent groups with both males and female from breeding? I've had 'grow-outs' breed in my grow-out tanks. It can cause stress among the fish.

Simple, Quick Filters.
With enough circulation i believe fertilization does become impossible if i am remembering right.
I do have a 37 that is currently running, (though as is it most definitely is no place for a cichlid) and if any fish in particular are being harried I plan to keep the 10g running for this exact reason, I also have an empty one if I really do need it. I am trying to plan specifically with redundancy in mind. I think it will potentially work out, and I will keep the 10g for redundancy. Hopefully I won't need it.

 

[MacZ]

With enough circulation i believe fertilization does become impossible if i am remembering right.

That's rather irrelevant for cave spawners. But likely strong current might keep them from getting even in the mood in the first place. Not appropriate for them, in my opinion.

 

[Memeboi]

That's rather irrelevant for cave spawners. But likely strong current might keep them from getting even in the mood in the first place. Not appropriate for them, in my opinion.

Oh ok, well I guess scrap that idea, I do wonder, what are ways to prevent them from breeding WITHOUT impeding quality of life

 

[anewbie]

Oh ok, well I guess scrap that idea, I do wonder, what are ways to prevent them from breeding WITHOUT impeding quality of life

Keep only one sex in the aquarium. That will also increase quality of life since less aggression though i've seen two males get territorial and attack each other.

 

[Memeboi]

Keep only one sex in the aquarium. That will also increase quality of life since less aggression though i've seen two males get territorial and attack each other.

Hmm... makes sense, do you think 3 females could work in a heavily planted 10g, thinking that I would keep 6 fish total (including the parents) 3 male and 3 female, do you think that could work?

 

[MacZ]

Oh ok, well I guess scrap that idea, I do wonder, what are ways to prevent them from breeding WITHOUT impeding quality of life

Keep only one sex in the aquarium.

Yep. And in a tank of 110 liters I'd only keep a single male. With A. borellii two or three might work, I know someone who would even say up to 5, but that would be excessive and my own experience tells me otherwise.

do you think 3 females could work in a heavily planted 10g

No. The footprint is too small. And I think you rely to much on "heavily planted". Make sure there is plenty of hardscape, so that even if all the plants are removed the structure is sufficient. Because if you should have trouble with the plants or start with too few plants this might backfire otherwise.

 

[Memeboi]

Yep. And in a tank of 110 liters I'd only keep a single male. With A. borellii two or three might work, I know someone who would even say up to 5, but that would be excessive and my own experience tells me otherwise.


No. The footprint is too small. And I think you rely to much on "heavily planted". Make sure there is plenty of hardscape, so that even if all the plants are removed the structure is sufficient. Because if you should have trouble with the plants or start with too few plants this might backfire otherwise.

2 thoughts, 1, what about 2 females with a divider, like i currently have in the 10g (though one is male).
And Honestly I thought that a 20g footprint is enough for 2 males, seeing as they are comfortable alone in tanks smaller then 10g, do you think that It could actually work with 2 if I hardscape enough, I've heard of that black expanding foam that seems really useful for this exact purpose. also the 10g has a good amount of hardscape in it.

 

[MacZ]

what about 2 females with a divider, like i currently have in the 10g (though one is male).

A divider is a completely different situation. Still quite a small space then.

seeing as they are comfortable alone in tanks smaller then 10g

Yeah, alone. Completely different situation if you have two. in the same tank.

I'm getting the feeling you're trying to negotiate to cram in as many fish into as little space as possible. I would not do that. (Neither what you're thinking about for the fish, nor negotiate with me. It's your decision, not mine.) Responsibility and the needs of the animals are my highest priority and you're starting to cross the line of what I call species appropriate and responsible fishkeeping. Sorry to say so.

I've heard of that black expanding foam that seems really useful for this exact purpose.

You lost me. That stuff floats, you will have to silicone it to the glass before adding anything else to the tank and let both cure for several days. Also there are only few companies that produce such foam that doesn't leach chemicals into the water.
Some good old rocks and driftwood are cheaper, easier and safer.

 

[Memeboi]

A divider is a completely different situation. Still quite a small space then.


Yeah, alone. Completely different situation if you have two. in the same tank.

I'm getting the feeling you're trying to negotiate to cram in as many fish into as little space as possible. I would not do that. (Neither what you're thinking about for the fish, nor negotiate with me. It's your decision, not mine.) Responsibility and the needs of the animals are my highest priority and you're starting to cross the line of what I call species appropriate and responsible fishkeeping. Sorry to say so.


You lost me. That stuff floats, you will have to silicone it to the glass before adding anything else to the tank and let both cure for several days. Also there are only few companies that produce such foam that doesn't leach chemicals into the water.
Some good old rocks and driftwood are cheaper, easier and safer.

From my understanding a ridge of sorts, about 6 inches high could basically work as a divider in miniature (sight break).

Also, this is thankfully a hypothetical and the main reason I am trying to figure out how many borelli I can fit in my setups with out endangering the fish is simply because of the fact that borellii are nigh on impossible to source locally, honestly apistogramma species in general are just absent in PA and I want to make sure that i can have multiple generations to keep a population alive locally.
I honestly cannot realistically set up another tank beyond the 29 so I really want to make sure this can work,
Otherwise I guess I'll just sell off all the fry after breeding and keep the parents (or honestly probably the fry).
Also, I haven't heard of many diffic

 

[Andrew H]

The problem with soil; beyond cost is you never know what it can leach. This is one of my aquariums; a 29 with inert substrate; and while I suppose plants could be made to grow faster and denser; and they do in my co2 inject aquarium (not pictured); I think they still fill out just fine without soil:
View attachment 12099

Personally I would breed the borelli in the 29 and then move the frys to the 10 when the parents abandon them. Be sure to include lots of driftwood and small rocks in the bottom as well as leaf liter for the fishes to hide. I use this aquarium as sort of a mis mash of stuff i don't know where to put - In case you are wondering the angel in it are runts so they won't get much larger... You know not much you can do with a runt angel as you can't really pass it on to someone else and they aen't able to compete with the larger ones... gotta put them somewhere to pass the time.

That tank looks amazing! Can you call out the major plants you have in there?

 

[anewbie]

That tank looks amazing! Can you call out the major plants you have in there?

italia vals (trade name); Aponogeton boivinianus (one of my favorite plants in theory it will eventually hibernate but hasn't in 4 years); some various anubias and crypts - several nuri rosen but not really visible in the picture but doing well.