Tank stocking help please :)

[Wills]

Hi ive just bought a Fluval Roma 125 which is 30g 36inches long 15 front to back. Come up with a stocking plan which I have based on reading over the past month or so while the tank has been cycling (fishless) have posted on a few general forums but got conflicting reports so thought I would come to you guys as I have learned a lot from reading here.

The stocking plan is

3 Apisto Cacatuoides (1m 2f)
2 Redbreast Acara (1m 1f)
A medium sized school of Platinum Tetras 10-15
2 Plecs (1 L344 and 1 L??? not decided on the second yet)

The main question is is the tank big enough for both species of dwarfs and if not why? Thanks for replies which are all really appreciated Wills

Also just to let you know my background with fish I have been keeping tanks for about 4 years but had to give up my tanks about 6 months ago but I have my new place now for about a month and got this tank set up already I just cant keep away

 

[WuddyWoodpeckah]

The main question is is the tank big enough for both species of dwarfs and if not why? Thanks for replies which are all really appreciated
Wills

Welcome to the forum

IME, two species of dwarves dont do too well together unless you have a 4 ft (or bigger) tank. In a 3ft by 15 inch tank, you may be able to get away with 2 sets of relatively peaceful dwarves. In general, if you have enough "separation", i.e, you create two different regions in the tank where the fish cannot see each other, then they will be fine. Again, it would require careful scaping of the tank so that there is no direct line of sight, so there are distinct regions in the tank that each male can call his territory.

I have had a pair of german rams and apisto.trifasciata in a 42 inch tank before without any fighting, but I'm not sure I would do it again with anything smaller than a 48 inch tank.

Good luck!

 

[Wills]

Thanks for the reply I have been considering the line of sight issues a lot my ideas for scaping the tank and I have been considering creating "valis curtains" up and down the tank to literally make planted dividers for the tank, Ive also bought 6 moss covered coconut bridges with intention to learn how to make more also going to make a collection of rocks for the tank hopefully black granite or dark black slate rather than wood as it is very expensive in my area.
Thanks again
Wills

 

[Tedstank]

My tank as an example:: 55 gal long with a trio of triple Reds and a Trio of Borellis' (was just a pair). The cacs although peaceful have taken the tank. The 2 femaales each have setup territories at each end of the tanks...spawning is well and male goes to whichever side he is needed at....BUT...the Borellis in that tank are unable to spawn. There is NO territory left for them. This is ok for me as they are in there to rest (I periodically rotate the males and females to my spawning tank).

If you did just 1 pair of 2 species it might work ok as long as neither are known to be too aggressive.

I find that adult females (even when not spawning) are more trouble makers than the males...with these 2 species at least.

The triple red male and the borelli male are tolerable of each eachother and do not fight...only a little flaring.

 

[Wills]

Thanks Ted - I have to agree with you about the pair of cacs rather than the trio think this will cut quite a few risks. I am not really prepared at the moment if they did breed and would have to allow them to look after their own untill I get a tank set up - I do have a spare 10g and also a filter running in the main tank in semi preparation for the fry if needed. I think I will add the cacs in last as well so the redbreasts can claim a little teritory before they are butted out as it were. Thanks again

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
If you do try both, if you only keep 1 female cacatuoides with your male, she will be in for a hard time, as he will always want to spawn, even when she has fry, isn't ready etc. If you go for a pair you need to make sure the female has plenty of places to hide, probably including some "caves" (pvc piping) high in the tank, tucked away in a corner.

Personally I'd go for either a pair of Laetacara or harem of Apistogrammas, but probably not both. I'd go for just one species, any of borellii, trifasciata, cacatuoides or agassizii but 1 male and at least 3 females, then the male has a harem, and the females will interact together.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wills]

Again thankyou for the replies

I'm at a bit of a loss now for what to do I think that people are saying it could work but I would'nt recommend it, and I think I would rather not take the risk so will press on with just the Apisto Cacatuoides. One problem I have is the rarety of good females in my area most stock in my LFS's are about 90% male and of the remaining females I have seen one absolutley stunning one but I am more than certain she has gone or if not will have by the time I am ready for them.

How ever after ruling the other pair of dwarfs out do you think there are any other types of cichlid that could work ? Either as a pair or solo ? Any other tank mate recommendations?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Wills where are you based? are you in the UK?
getting hold of Apistogrammas is often the difficult part, with as you say most shops only selling pairs or males.
cheers Darrel

 

[Wills]

Hi I'm from Hull (don't worry I'm not the stereotype) and we do have some excellent LFS in the area but like I say just a lack of good females any ideas?

Also any other tank mate ideas? To go with the apistos, tetras and plec?

 

[Tedstank]

Sorry, I know the "what i do's" get confusing (we are all eager to to add "what works for me") but the way i am keeping my apistos works for my needs. The only reason i even get trios is that i am accustomed to loosing a fish here and there. The last puchase i made (Borellis) was for 2 males and 3 females....has worked great for me. My triple reds do great spawning in the community tank and raising enough fry.

It is tough sorting out out all the recommendations as they are all good and valid...You just need to find the the ones that will apply to what you want to do with your tanks and fish.

Example: I went thru a heck of a time learning how best to get soft acid water ( I had pages and pages of different techniques) and am now a full supporter of R/O water!!! In the long run it is cheaper than all the chemicals and way safer too!!!

Hope all gets setup well with you....it is so much fun and a wonderful hobby!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Wills, Hull should be quite good for fish, I'm sure you should be able to find somewhere local or a breeder that sells pairs (I've also emailed someone I know from the Hull area, to see if he has any suggestions).

Water quality may be a big issue, I'm lucky and can use rainwater, but if I wanted to keep most Apisto's otherwise I'd have to use R.O., as our tap water is very hard.

I wouldn't get any other fish, I've never kept Platinum Tetras (Hemigrammus vorderwinkleri), they are smart looking fish and not too big, but I think they are "blackwater" Tetras from the Rio Negro, so they will probably predate egs and fry (blackwater fish tend to eat anything they can get hold of). The best dithers are ones that keep well up in the water column away from the fry

I keep Black Neons with my A. cacatuoides, they are cheap to buy, hardy and colour up really well in good water, and they works quite well, most people keep Pencil fish, because they are surface orientated and have small mouths, but other people keep Ember Tetras, the new micro Rasboras, thread fin Rainbows, Blue eyes etc.

Same with the Plecs, I keep Otocinclus (must be kept in groups, have planted tanks, be fed vegetables and have good water quality), they are certainly safe, other ones may be more problematic. I don't know anything about L344 (an Ancistrus sp.), although the "back to nature guide" to L numbers says it is small growing, and likes a reasonable flow (Also again looks very smart).

Larry, "Apistomaster" will know more as he is a specialist breeder of both Apisto's and L numbers.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wills]

I have to admit that if I get fry I wont be specifically raising them though I do have a 10g (for which the filter will be running along the main one in this tank) just in case I do get fry which end up getting to a good size, but other than that I think I will leave it to the fish to get them to that stage. But I live in an apartment so I dont have room for multiple tanks until we get a house. So in that sense a bit of egg preditation would not be too bad, as much as I would love to set up a fish house I'm just not able to at the moment.

The platinum tetras I have seen are Hemigrammus Armstrongi which seems to be a bit of a disputed species. And with the plecs I was aware of them being egg eaters but again I would think that the apistos would fend them away? I know in the past my rams and keyholes that bred both warded of common bristlenoses and a lot of others

At the moment I am very much of the opinion that I should just get the trio of apistos and leave the redbreasts as much as I want them I would rather not risk it. Though I would still like tank mates for them and this tank is going to be very well scaped Ive just got back with the tank and rocks wood etc and have a delivery of plants any day now.

Also with the water - I was not going to soften it as the apistos I am getting are tank bred and kept in local water at the LFS. Would this be a problem?

So I think now the stocking is looking

3 Apistogramma Cacatuoides (1m 2f)
10-15 of a school - possibly now pencil fish or maybe split it with hatchets as well
2 Small plecs
and then possibly somthing else? Any suggestions?

Thanks again Wills

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Wills, I haven't kept H. rodwayi/armstrongi either, but my suspicion would be the same would apply. The Plec question probably depends a little bit on whether the female lays her eggs in a very small cave, where the Plec can't get in at night, and also takes the fry back there. If she does probably all right, and once the fry are free swimming again no problem.

I think your tap water will be an issue, go to Yorkshire Water <http://www.yorkshirewater.com/> and get the water quality for your postcode.

Apistogramma cacatuoides will breed in harder water, but it still needs to be of reasonable quality, none of the Pencils/Platinum tetras or Hatchets will like hard water either, (also to keep Hatchets long term its best to have a culture of wingless fruit flies, pencils like them as well).

In the water the parameters you are most interested in hardness, conductivity, nitrate and chloramine content. Depends on where your water comes from, ours is oolitic limestone aquifer water, relatively pure but saturated with calcium carbonate. As an example my tap water is "Lake Malawi" - 17dh (German), 300 mg/l calcium carbonate, conductivity 615 mg/l and nitrate 10mg/l, residual chlorine 0.2 mg/l, no chloramine content.

I don't know the phosphorus content because they don't need to tell you (as there is no legal higher limit), they did say they added "a totally safe amount of orthophosphate ("plumbsolvency") to comply with the legal requirements (for Lead content Pb), traces of which will remain in the drinking water supply".

cheers Darrel

 

[Wills]

wow thankyou so much for this DW - I've been into fish keeping for about 4 years and never been taken into such detail but I absolutely love it.

Conductivity 599.96
Nitrate 40.6301 - bit worrying even I know that
Water hardness category: Very hard
Average water hardness: 127.4 (mg/l)

then I cant find the cholromine rating - but I am fairly certain the water conditioner I use removes it?

how do these look? Should I use RO water I am fairly certain I can get this from an LFS but just worried about expense and also time as the LFS that sells it is about a half hour drive away

with the wingless fruit flies how do i get them? And do they have to be live in the house as the girlfriend will not let me I know that for definite lol.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Wills, I'm afraid wingless fruit flies do have to live in the house. <http://www.freewebs.com/mad4frogs/>

It's not great water, I think you have three options, R.O (probably not realistic if you have to buy it at the LFS, as you need to do quite regular water changes), rain water (again dependent upon the quality) or less demanding fish.

Chloramine will be present if they add ammonia as well as chlorine to the water supply (it is a longer lasting disinfectant than chlorine alone), I'd ask Yorkshire Water. Some de-chlorinators do, "Prime" works I think, but I've never used it.

The nitrate content is a real problem, in fact it is pretty close to the upper limit for UK drinking water (50 mg per litre). Heavy planting and lots of plant removal may be able to reduce it, but I'm sorry I can't be of more help.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

LFS in Hull, Apistogramma

Hi all,
Wills I got an answer for Hull LFS, via Dave ("Hullfishman" on other forums)

"hi i have seen these fish at ferrybridge aquatics, not sure on prices but they where selling in pairs,also maidenhead aquatics @beverley andsometimes frisby aquatics have them"

cheers Darrel

 

[Wills]

hmm yeah I think I have to agree with you about the three options and of the three the only viable is the last picking a new center fish - any ideas? I am pretty much open to anything that would get the ball rolling ?

Also thanks for contacting the other hull native I know the two local ones and have to agree with both but not been to the ferrybridge one ... thinking of a quick trip this week end now.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Also got this back from Dave, when I sent your water parameters.

"hi, my water checks out the same as your mates, i use peat granules to soften my water and it seems to keep my king tigers breeding. i have bred a couple of apistos in local tap water without having to mess with the params but i guess wilds would need soft water."

So the A. cacatuoides are still a possibility.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wills]

WOW you have just made my day.

I have to admit I have just been re thinking the idea and toying with using peat in my tank but I also thought that if I can find a tank bred strain kept in local water that seem healthy they would be worth a try as well? Perhaps start to look at some of the other tank bred strains? Thanks again for all your help

Wills

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Wills other people who have kept more different Apistogramma species will be able to give you more information, but from what I've read, of the easily obtainable species, A. cacatuoides is the one most tolerant of harder water and higher pH.
cheers Darrel