Sudden Apistograma death need help with why

[woaht]

I have my 20 gallon tank set up for about 5 months with ember tetras living it in for about 3 months. I finally decided to put my Apistograma pair in the tank to breed. (The cichlids have been in my 29g community for 2 months growing out). I moved them into the tank at night and went to bed. When I woke up for work the next morning to check They look bloated, stringy poop, can’t swim properly and hiding in the corner. My first thought was some sort of internal parasite bc of stringy clear poop and swimming issues. So I dosed with meds and left for work. Later when I came back around 4:00pm they were both dead. I am so confused why my pair died bc the tetras were all fine. Any help would be appreciated to understand.

Extra information: tank parameters were all the same for both tanks. The 20 gallon has a temp of 81F, Community tank temp is 78F. I acclimated by putting in catch cup and adding a bit of water over time.

 

[MacZ]

I'm not giving you any promises that we will find the definitive causes. That's just impossible over the internet.

Please copy the template for health emergencies and fill it out as exact as you can.

Template for disease/parasite/death cases

This template contains the most important questions to be answered when dealing with sick or dead fish to find causes and advise on treatments. Please copy and paste into a new thread and answer the questions as precise as possible. Water parameters should be given in numbers. "Fine" or "good"...

apistogramma.com

 

[MacZ]

Otherwise there is a phenomenon we encounter a lot that is very similar to your case, which is caused by acute stress, when the fishes immunesystems just collapse.

Additionally, internal parasites often go unnoticed until it's too late, so that might factor in as well. Dosing a med on a whim is also a possibility, as the side effects might be fatal.

Also in case of internal parasited you always have the problem it mught be worms or protozoa (flagellates) and each of those requires different meds and many of these meds have strong side effects and might thus kill the fish rather than the parasites.

As to why the tetras are not affected: Tetras live in the open water and rarely pick at things on the bottom. Dwarf cichlids are pretty much bottom dwellers and are much more susceptible to parasites in detritus and fecal matter.

 

[woaht]

Which animal is affected? Species, sex, age? (If age unknown: How long have you had the fish?) - Age unknown they were very young when I got them from lfs had them for 3 months 1 male 1 female. Orange flash cacutoidies



What are the symptoms? Any changes in look, behaviour, bearing, buoyancy, fecies? - stringy poop. Not able to swim properly. Looks bloated and buoyancy issues, hiding in bottom near filter and cave





How long has the problem been going on? (Timeline?) - started 2 days ago fish died within 30 hours of moving in



What's the full stocking list? - 2 Apistograma, 7 ember tetras. , 3 otocinclus



Any changes in the behaviour of the other fish? - none



What size is the tank? (Preferrably dimensions, not volume!) - 30inch x 12inch x 12inch



How long is the tank running? - 6-5 months



Have there been any changes in the past 2 months? New animals, plants, decoration? - None



What food are the fish fed? How much, how often? - fed live or frozen bbs once every day



What is the temperature? - 81f



What are the water parameters? (Please note all known tank and source water parameters in numbers! Not "good", "optimal" or "perfect"!)

pH:6.8-7.2ppm

GH:75-150ppm

KH:80-120

EC/TDS:unknown

NO3:0ppm

NO2:0ppm

NH3/4:0ppm



What test kit did you use? (liquid, strips, store service?) AQUARIUM Coop test strips



Are you using water conditioners or any other additives? (e.g. dechlorinators, humic/blackwater extracts, fertilizers) - I add Indian almond leaves for tannins and ph



What filter are you using? (Canister, sponge, internal, mattenfilter?) - 1 Sponge filter



What's the maintenance regimen? (Waterchange volume and frequency, thorough cleaning of filters/substrate?) - 1-2 times a month 25% water. I do not gravel vac or clean sponge filter unless very dirty maybe every 2-3 months



Have there been any chemicals used around the tank? (Cleaning agents, room sprays, wall paint, adhesives...) - none



Have there been any pesticides, fungicides or herbicides used around the tank? - none



Are there any unknown animals in the tank? - none



What has been done already? (Timeline!) - after fish died within 30 hours I decided to reset the tank because I could not identify the issue.


What has been done already? (Timeline!) - after fish died within 30 hours I decided to reset the tank because I could not identify the issue.



If so, what meds have been used? (Timeline!) after 8 hours of putting the fish in. The next morning I dosed 2 packets of Fritz paracleanse



Please provide pictures/videos of the fish AND tank in question! - no pictures of tank because was taken down and reset

 

[woaht]

Otherwise there is a phenomenon we encounter a lot that is very similar to your case, which is caused by acute stress, when the fishes immunesystems just collapse.

Additionally, internal parasites often go unnoticed until it's too late, so that might factor in as well. Dosing a med on a whim is also a possibility, as the side effects might be fatal.

Also in case of internal parasited you always have the problem it mught be worms or protozoa (flagellates) and each of those requires different meds and many of these meds have strong side effects and might thus kill the fish rather than the parasites.

As to why the tetras are not affected: Tetras live in the open water and rarely pick at things on the bottom. Dwarf cichlids are pretty much bottom dwellers and are much more susceptible to parasites in detritus and fecal matter.

I posted the list below
I think this might be the case. I don’t gravel vac every water change so the bottom probably had something in it. And the tetras are mid water column fish so they would never pick something off the floor.

I wish I had pictures of the tank but i already took it down and decided to reset the tank because i had no idea why they died. My first thought was parasites but there is no way they could die that fast?

 

[MacZ]

Resetting the tank was not necessary in my opinion. I presume the fish came with the parasites anyway and the stress of moving likely weakened their immune systems so the parasites got the upper hand. This was probably already months in the making. The critical phase can indeed be as short as you just witnessed.

Gravel vacuuming is irrelevant in dwarf cichlid tanks if properly set up with fine sand substrate. Your waterchange regiment should be 50% a week if the tank is running less than 9 months. But those are just by-factors, not causes.

Be aware these domestic colour breeds are commonly just genetic trash. The result of generations linebred and inbred. They are often more sensitive than wild caught fish. In my experience giving them the same conditions as wild fish (lowlowloooow EC, no hardness, pH below 6) and a proper quarantine with deworming prolongs their lives massively. In a normal community setting these fish have 6-12 months of life expectancy tops.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'm sorry to hear of your loss, it is something that has happened to all (or nearly all) of us.

How long is the tank running? - 6-5 months

Have a look at the <"Seasoned Tank Time"> concept. It is really difficult for us to judge what the tank was like without a photo.

NO3:0ppm
NO2:0ppm
NH3/4:0ppm

What test kit did you use? (liquid, strips, store service?) AQUARIUM Coop test strips

You won't actually have 0 ppm nitrate (NO3-), NO3- is a <"lot trickier to test for"> than the aquarium industry acknowledges. Have a look at <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-is-the-“duckweed-index”-all-about.73647/">.

I used to work in a lab. and, partially because of this, I tend to not make decisions purely based on test kit or meter results.

cheers Darrel