Substrate for dwarf cichlid breeding tank

[illumnae]

I'm setting up some breeding tanks for dwarf cichlids, mainly Apistogramma but I may try others as well as and when they are available to me (e.g. at the moment I have 2 pairs of Ivanacara bimaculata waiting to go into the tanks). I'm planning to keep the tanks functional and not biotope/display style so they'll be easy to reset between projects. The plan is just for sponge filters, substrate, a potted plant (Crypt or Echinodorus) and caves. I would be using ro water to help with breeding.

For the substrate, would using an aquatic soil that buffers the water parameters be of any use if I'm using ro water? I would probably need to replace it every 6 months or so as buffering capacity expires. Alternatively, should I go with a fine sand to better emulate their natural conditions? I would like to avoid using white sand even though it's the most similar to their natural biotope. While it's a breeding tank, I do like to look at and photograph my fish from time to time so I would like to avoid them looking washed out. What would be the best colour sand for the fish to show nice colours naturally? One lfs whose owner breeds apistos locally has recommended red or black sand. I have easy access to JBL Sansibar series sand, but can source for others as well.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't know anything about fish, I'm only here as the spam detector, but from what I've read these past months, a display tank is not a breeding tank. You'll find no joy in keeping more than one pair in the same tank, and that pair requires a lot of cover.

 

[illumnae]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I have no intention of keeping more than 1 pair per tank. I'm not even intending to keep dithers with each pair as I know it's not recommended. I did mention in my first sentence that I was setting up breeding tanks (plural), not 1 tank. 16 to be exact.

The primary purpose is to have 1 breeding pair per tank, but as mentioned for viewing purposes I would like the fish not to appear washed out, as can be the case when the surrounding environment is too light in colour. I know it doesn't matter to some people but if I could influence the fish colour slightly via sand colour without affecting the fish negatively I would like to. I'm thinking of red or dark grey (JBL Sansibar) or black (Dennerle).

Other than that, my other query is whether using aquatic soil (ADA/Tropica/etc) would be better for the fish than sand given its buffering capabilities, or would it not matter since I'm using ro water.

 

[MacZ]

(Relatively ) short and clear answer:
Use fine sand as substrate and to condition the water with humic substances use botanicals like leaf litter (beech and oak will work absolutely fine, you don't have to buy tropical leaves) and alder cones combined with pure RO. If you want you can also use peat (not peat moss!) but just be aware peat is not sustainably sourced. Instead of pricey peat plates or granules from the aquarium trade you can get peat from garden centers aswell, just make sure it is not laced with fertilizers or anything. You can get a year's supply for less than 50€ that way.

Just additionally: Many dwarf cichlids chew sand as their main mode of feeding, so it is essential. If it has to be branded JBL Sansibar orange always was my sand of choice when I had to resort to buying in the trade, usually I would get pool filter sand or fine quartz sand from building supply stores because you pay a fraction of the branded stuff. Instead of using dark substrate just add enough leaf litter the fish will thank you with perfectly balanced colouration.

 

[MacZ]

The plan is just for sponge filters, substrate, a potted plant (Crypt or Echinodorus) and caves.

You will need sight beakers (wood or rocks 10-15cm high above the sand, glass to glass and no chance of looking or moving under or around it) and/or remove the males after spawning. If a female is not ready to breed, males will chase and harass her relentlessly, in many cases until she drops dead. Once the eggs have been laid, the tables turn and the males will be subjected to quite some violence.

 

[anewbie]

hth pool filter sand is good and cheap if you are in usa; carbisea crystal river is also good.

For pair forming fishes like Ivanacara bimaculata and a. nijjensi line of sight is a non issue esp if they are already a pair; but for most species of apistogramma it is very important. I find that some nice driftwood with rocks over them make excellent caves as well as a good layer of fresh leaves at different angels - in my 100 where i have mixed several species of dwarf cichild i frequently find that a quick dart under a leaf resolves the conflict if there is one.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
edit: what the other posters say.

I'm planning to keep the tanks functional and not biotope/display style so they'll be easy to reset between projects. The plan is just for sponge filters, substrate, a potted plant (Crypt or Echinodorus) and caves. I would be using ro water to help with breeding.

I would prefer to leave the tank set-up, even when it doesn't have any inhabitants, that way you get an <"established tank"> if fry are produced.

I've done this for a while <"https://apistogramma.com/forum/threads/urgent-before-problems-arise.8596/#post-48227"> & <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/splash-tetra-copella-arnoldi.32494/">.

For the substrate, would using an aquatic soil that buffers the water parameters be of any use if I'm using ro water? I would probably need to replace it every 6 months or so as buffering capacity expires. Alternatively, should I go with a fine sand to better emulate their natural conditions? I would like to avoid using white sand even though it's the most similar to their natural biotope.

Use sand and a layer of <"structural leaf litter">. You only need a thin layer of sand, it is inert and has no effect on water chemistry, which takes a variable out of the equation.

Add a <"sub-surface floating plant">, <"a surface floater"> and <"as much moss as you can lay your hands on">. Just add a minimal amount of nutrients to keep the plants in growth via the Duckweed Index.

cheers Darrel

 

[illumnae]

Thank you all for the great suggestions. The ceramic pots I bought to plant the potted plants in are about 8-10cm in height and diameter so the plan was for them to be the line of sight breakers in each tank. The breeding caves I use also have just a small hole as a single entrance exit. In past experience usually the female claims the cave and uses her body to block the entrance to avoid getting attacked by the male. The sponge filter has also been used as a hiding spot before.

Great idea on the leaf litter. I have bags and bags of ketapang leaves in my storeroom, and a fair amount of various types of botanicals like seed pods, twigs, bark etc. I purchased a bunch for my 600 gallon display tank before converting it into a planted tank instead. I will use them in the breeding tanks for sure, and they should help with breaking line of sight at the substrate level as well.

So with leaf litter, colour of the sand doesn't matter for colouration of the fish? Or would a darker substrate like Sansibar Dark or a black or dark red substrate colour still be beneficial? Pool filter sand is not readily available to me here in Singapore so for a more natural looking sand that is fine enough for dwarf cichlids to chew and filter through their gills, I'll probably have to use Sudo Bottom Sand. It's a tan coloured sand similar to ADA Colorado sand but abit less orangey.

I will probably use Amazon frogbit in each tank to help with bio filtration.

 

[MacZ]

So with leaf litter, colour of the sand doesn't matter for colouration of the fish?

Correct, the fish just adapt to their environment to be as invisible as possible. Bright substrate/light/background and they reduce their colours, dark environment and they try to be darker. It doesn't matter what colours they can have, they will always adapt.

Or would a darker substrate like Sansibar Dark or a black or dark red substrate colour still be beneficial?

So in the end: Neither is beneficial or detrimental except for your viewing experience.

for a more natural looking sand that is fine enough for dwarf cichlids to chew and filter through their gills,

This is all that matters in the end.

 

[anewbie]

I can't tell you if dark or light will work out better but i can tell you that the fish will change its colouring depending on the environment so it can have a big impact on how the fish appears.

 

[illumnae]

For the dwarf cichlids to be able to chew through the sand, I assume 1mm grain size would be too large? Dennerle sand is 1-2mm, while the JBL sand is smaller at about 0.3-0.6mm and Sudo sand is in between I think 0.5-1mm. Would JBL be the only suitable option of the 3?

 

[Mike Wise]

This might interest you: https://apistogramma.com/forum/thre...e-what-do-i-have-thrown-in.25526/#post-126041

 

[illumnae]

This might interest you: https://apistogramma.com/forum/thre...e-what-do-i-have-thrown-in.25526/#post-126041

Thank you! The sand from Peru is really super fine. I notice that the sand you use is at least 2-3mm - are dwarf cichlids able to chew sand that large? Or is it just not necessary to have fine sand?

 

[MacZ]

are dwarf cichlids able to chew sand that large?

In some species (there is a significant overrepresentation in domestic A. macmasteri) it can lead to broken jaws or lock-jaw. In both cases the fish starve afterwards.

Or is it just not necessary to have fine sand?

It's debatable. Is it possible to keep dwarf cichlids without fine sand? Yes. Does it have downsides? I would also say yes. Would the use of fine sand be of advantage for the fish and their health? Probably. Many people (not all, as Mike can attest) report problems with dwarf cichlid health when keeping them on too coarse or no substrate.

 

[Mike Wise]

I must agree with MacZ about this. I'm just too cheap to buy new sand, which I've been using for 40 years! I also admit that it takes me longer to deep clean my sand and if I'm not careful with double screening can clog drains. Please buy finer sand than mine.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I must agree with MacZ about this. I'm just too cheap to buy new sand, which I've been using for 40 years! I also admit that it takes me longer to deep clean my sand and if I'm not careful with double screening can clog drains. Please buy finer sand than mine.

Same as Mike for me, I used fine silica sand (bought as "play sand"), I don't ever vacuum it, and I've used the same sand for 10 - 20 years.

Cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

and I've used the same sand for 10 - 20 years.

Makes three of us, I didn't use the sand for that long, but in those 6 years I had my blackwater until february, I also re-used the same sand over and over and still have some of it in my planted cube, while the rest is stored in a bucket until I get to set up my big tank again.

 

[illumnae]

Thank you all for sharing your experience. I think that I will get the Sudo Bottom Sand. It isn't as fine as the Peru sand that Mike shared pictures of, but I think it's at least smaller in grain size than 1mm.

This is the product picture that I downloaded. Does it look ok?

The alternative would be JBL Sansibar Dark that's rated at 0.3-0.6mm so slightly finer and more consistent grain size, but the colour is not as natural looking - the distributor is out of stock of the orange version, and the natural looking River version is 0.8mm so probably not finer than the Sudo.

 

[Cockatoofreak]

I would like recommendations on a dark substrate that I can buy locally for my Cockatoo Cichlids, in Northern California. I only want 5 to 10 lbs, not 50!

I want to give them the a safe, fine and dark that I can buy locally...anyone???

 

[Mike Wise]

It depends on what the dark sand is made from. Natural black sand, composed of grains of basalt, are fine. Black sand composed of crushed coal slag is glass with sharp edges and can contain toxic residual chemicals; not fine. Also note that dark sand tends to make apistos show duller colors than neutral color sands.