Something is wrong, but what exactly is it?? (I. Adoketa)

[awth]

I have a pair of I. Adoketa for over 3 months, and I recently noticed there is something wrong with them, but I just don't know what exactly it is? Please help me.

General Water Parameter:
100L Tank; ph 5.6, kh 0, GH 0-1, TDC 110us, Temp 24-26C

Food:
Sera Discus Granule / ADA Granule / Frozen Brine Shrimp once every 2 weeks --- No live food nor worms, ever!


Mar 16th (Fri):
They spawn for the first time. At least 80 fertilized eggs were counted.


Mar 18th (Sun):
Eggs were becoming rotten, so I removed them for artifical breeding and I changed 30% of water in the same way as I normally do.


Mar 20th (tue):
Usually when I feed them, they will both come towards me energeticaly and greet for food. It was not the same, he tended to stay at the bottom with his belly touching the gravel, He still had an appetite, but was not as much as (about 1/5) he used to be. The female was fine.

I notice that the dried wood has a "white color rotten coat". Therefore, I removed them for boiling and haven't put them back yet. In fact, I boiled them for weeks before using and they were purchase from Aqua shops.

I then treat the pair with salt, less than 1%. Air pump supplied.


Mar 21st (wed):
In the morning, he seems recovered, but when I returned home from work, he again having the same symptom. Due to the "white color rotten coat" found on the dried wood, I suspect some kind of bacteria infection, therefore, I changed 30% water and then treated them with Water Myxazin in accordance to the commended dosage (3ml for 100L). Air pump supplied.


This morning Mar 22nd (thur):
His condition is pretty much the same. Even worse, the female is also having the same symptom.


Is my therapy correct? Or is it something else? Are they just under stress? What is wrong with them? What can I do!?

I can't concentrate on my work!! My minds are all the way home with them. I wish it is me who get sick!! I eagerly look forward for your assistant, thank you very very much X100!

Regards,
Alan

 

[awth]

Some more info to add:

1. They would curve their tails towards the head and forming a "U" shape.

2. My hypothesis is that, the water condition should be fine, otherwise, they wouldn't spawn! I never feed them any worm, it shouldn't be internal parasitic! So, the most possible reason is because of the rotten dried wood??

Please help, thank you!
Alan

 

[Marc]

Hi Alan,
i never kept I. adoketa, but some things catches my eye.

General Water Parameter:
100L Tank; ph 5.6, kh 0, GH 0-1, TDC 110us, Temp 24-26C

It seems to be a little cold. The middle Negro river basin is sometimes up to 29°-30°C. In the case of your adoketas, my first attempt was, to keep up the temperature to stable 26° or maybe better 27°C.

Eggs were becoming rotten, so I removed them for artifical breeding and I changed 30% of water in the same way as I normally do.

What is about the eggs, there are still some "Good" eggs remaining?

I notice that the dried wood has a "white color rotten coat".

Normally, this coat doesn't matter. Many catfish like this as an enhancement of their menu. This coat disappears after some weeks. We use wood from shops, but even more directly from the woods around. Dry branches with remaining leaves (beech and oak), roots. Very often, there is this "coat" to find, but neverever we recognized, that this will harm the fish (apistos, tetras, and other).

I then treat the pair with salt, less than 1%.

That would not be amiss, but this is even not the patent remedy for all and everything.

suspect some kind of bacteria infection, therefore, I changed 30% water and then treated them with Water Myxazin

In my humble opinion, that is not the best idea. Without a proper diagnosis, you should be very very carefull, using this and that in a short frequency. This means also a lot of stress for the fish.

Regards
Marc

 

[fishgeek]

unfortunately alan all relatively non specific signs to me

sitting on the bottom or negative bouyancy(can they swim up into the water column normally?)
can be normal for sedentary fish or sleeping fish
loss of gas from the swimbladder
and occasionally heavy gastric objects

if the fish can swim normally up and down easily in the water column then the above is of no help as swimbadder is not neccesarily the issue

anorexia (no eating ) again can be for many reasons
any stress, poor enviroment and disease states

i would suggest that a feacal examination is a simple and useful starting test

any other signs alan?
checking romers suggests for water your doesnt seem bad for these , though some of the comments i the old book make me think they didnt keep well when it was first written

andrew

 

[awth]

Marc, thank you very much for your quick responses.

1. All the eggs were rotted on Tue morning. I believe the pair are still too young for breeding. The Male is about 7-8cm and the Female is about 5-6cm. Let me show you a pic of the parent:

2. The reason, I set the temp at 24-26C, is only because I learned from Dr. Uwe's Cichlid Atlas Volume 1, that within this 25-27C, the probability of having 50/50 female and male are more easily achieved. However, I will take your advice and set it at higher temperature, say 27C.

3. Yes, I did put in a pleco from my other tank to clean up any "coat" I may have left behind inside the tank.

4. I also understand treating them with different medication in short frequency is not appropriate. I should be more patient, but I am so afraid that they will past away.


Marc, what do you suggest that I should do, other than increase the temp? How to find out the proper diagnosis? I am not easily offended, so throw any idea you may have at me, need not be humble

 

[awth]

Hello Andrew,

Thank you for your prompt reply as well.

1. Re: bouyancy
Normally, they would swim around the tank energetically, left and right, up and down. Playing hide and seek with each other, but never fight.

2. Re: Anorexia
they still eat, but their appetite are not as much as they normally are. Maintenance, food, water change have been the same. 30%water change each week and water-in are the same parameter as inside the tank. This is the first time, they show signs of abnormal behaviour!

3. Re: Fecal
As I observe on the gravel, fecal is the same, in terms of colour, size, and frequency. And I do vacuum the gravel in every water change. The gravel that I am using is a Japanese brand, which can keep ph at 6.2 and very low kh.

4. Re: Water quality
I have total 13 Apist. tanks. All other tanks are fine, as for this 100L tank, I am using a Tetra EX90 (Asian Model Number -- 2nd biggest) with Powerhouse Bio Rings (slightly acid). Only a pair of I. Adoketa, and on Tue, I add a 7cm pleco from my other tank to clean up any remaining "coat". I also check other parameter NH3=0, NO2=0, NO3 =>10 using SERA. All are in the safe range.

5. Re: Other signs
a. the Male's color is darken
b. both of them would curve their tails toward to their head, forming like "L" shape (please ignore what I said in my 2nd thread, it is more like a "L" shape then a "U")
c. they would shiver from time to time, but I learn this is a sign of becoming mature. However, they shiver more frequently after having the symptom.

Andrew, anymore suggestion?

 

[awth]

An update......

After I went home from work yesterday, I observed the pair for almost 1 hour. I noticed that they are no longer sitting on the gravel with their belly but hiding undering the breeding pot. Therefore, I feel comfortable to put back the dried wood that are cleaned. Afterward, I did another 30% water change and observed them for another hour. They seem ok, and I fed them with Sera Discus Granule in 3/5 of their normal consumption and their appetite is almost normal. They were more energetic, however, not 100% yet. They still shiver from time to time and went into the coconut shell together and shivered.

This morning, I wake up 1 hours earlier and make my observation again, their condition is pretty much the same as lastnight, and I again fed them 3/5 amount of their normal consumption with Sera Discus Granule. However, they wouldn't come toward me to greet for food.

My observation concluded, they are more like under stress. However, it still gives me a bunch of question mark.

But why are they suddenly under stress?? They were fine on Tueday morning, and something must have happened on Tueday afternoon, and I can ignore human disturbance, since there is no one home. Water condition was normal on Tueday since I did tests on th water parameters.

I shall keep my observation for couple more days!

 

[fishgeek]

pm mike wise ted judy and randall to see if they have any idea's

sounds kind of neurological to me, the shivering and body shape/posture
though whether you could possibly have something in the water? i do not know, continued water changes and prehaps using some activated carbon for a short period nay be of help

otherwise some one with more experience(well any at all with these fish) may be able to suggest that this behaviour is normal for them?

i know others have posted about these fish before prehaps search the ste for adoteka and ask those who keep them

sorry i have been so little help
andrew

 

[awth]

pm mike wise ted judy and randall to see if they have any idea's

sounds kind of neurological to me, the shivering and body shape/posture
though whether you could possibly have something in the water? i do not know, continued water changes and prehaps using some activated carbon for a short period nay be of help

otherwise some one with more experience(well any at all with these fish) may be able to suggest that this behaviour is normal for them?

i know others have posted about these fish before prehaps search the ste for adoteka and ask those who keep them

sorry i have been so little help
andrew

Thank you andrew, you have been very helpful, indeed. I pm them already. I too want to find out if this is a normal behaviour, 1st timer in keeping I. Adoketa. :redface:

 

[Randall]

'Nannacara' adoketa

Hello Alan,

Reading this thread, it seems to me that you are an excellent fish keeper. As for your 'Nannacara' adoketa, the symptoms that you describe do not correspond to any specific patheogens with which I am aware. Have you ruled out intestinal protozoa completely? Symptoms include white stringy feces that take a long time to fall off the fish. The treatment for intestinal protozoa is Metronidazole. I don't think raising the temperature will do any good. The area from which 'N.' adoketa is described is not especially warm, so about 25 degrees should be fine.

Sorry I don't have more to offer you.

All the best,

Randall Kohn

 

[awth]

Hi Randall,

Thank you for your compliment and your advice.

I think I am pretty sure I can ruled out intestinal protozoa, since I never feed them live food or worms and more obviously, their belly look normal and no sunken. These picture were taken 1 month ago, and they just look the same to me, as at now. From my 3 hours observation yesterday and this morning, there is no signs of white stringy feces, but normal droppings, in terms of size and colour.

No further observation was made this afternoon, as I came home late from work. No feeding either. Though, I can still see them, each sleeping inside a coconut shell without their belly touching the gravel (thank God!).

Anyhow, I will keep an eye on them for couple more days.

Thank you and regards,
Alan

Hello Alan,

Reading this thread, it seems to me that you are an excellent fish keeper. As for your 'Nannacara' adoketa, the symptoms that you describe do not correspond to any specific patheogens with which I am aware. Have you ruled out intestinal protozoa completely? Symptoms include white stringy feces that take a long time to fall off the fish. The treatment for intestinal protozoa is Metronidazole. I don't think raising the temperature will do any good. The area from which 'N.' adoketa is described is not especially warm, so about 25 degrees should be fine.

Sorry I don't have more to offer you.

All the best,

Randall Kohn

 

[Mike Wise]

Alan,

I think that you might have gotten something chemical in your water. This can be anything from perfume, floor cleaner (ammonia), tobacco smoke. Think about what you use around the aquarium and its air supply. Remove any sources of problems. Water changes are the best remedy for this problem.

I would not worry about the shimmying. My pair do this to each other all of the time. In truth your fish are behaving like mine after a failed breeding attempts (I think; I have never seen eggs because of the hiding place). They tend to "sulk" - going off their feed, the male dragging along the bottom, and they become "snippy" with each other. The male, who is now almost 2X the size the the female, usually gets a notch taken out of his tail. Once they are ready to spawn again the pair darken and start eating again. My fish are over 2 years old now and still going strong. They are unhappy right now because I just moved them to a bare bottom tank (but with many hiding/spawning sites).

 

[awth]

True, one possible probability that I may have gotten something chemical into the tank, however, the tank is well covered. The chances are minimal, but I can't 100% ruled it out, since there are still gaps in between the cover and the tank.

It is interesting to learn their behaviour, and I am more comfortable after reading your posting that my pair are behaving like yours. But I will still keep my eyes on them!

Thank you, Mike!

Alan,

I think that you might have gotten something chemical in your water. This can be anything from perfume, floor cleaner (ammonia), tobacco smoke. Think about what you use around the aquarium and its air supply. Remove any sources of problems. Water changes are the best remedy for this problem.

I would not worry about the shimmying. My pair do this to each other all of the time. In truth your fish are behaving like mine after a failed breeding attempts (I think; I have never seen eggs because of the hiding place). They tend to "sulk" - going off their feed, the male dragging along the bottom, and they become "snippy" with each other. The male, who is now almost 2X the size the the female, usually gets a notch taken out of his tail. Once they are ready to spawn again the pair darken and start eating again. My fish are over 2 years old now and still going strong. They are unhappy right now because I just moved them to a bare bottom tank (but with many hiding/spawning sites).

 

[Mike Wise]

True, one possible probability that I may have gotten something chemical into the tank, however, the tank is well covered. The chances are minimal, but I can't 100% ruled it out, since there are still gaps in between the cover and the tank.

If you use an air pump, it could be pumping pollutants as well as air into your tank.

 

[awth]

Thank you, Mike! And thank you all of you for helping!

Another update:
Sat: they seem recovered, eating pretty much the same amount of what they used to be. And I made a 30% water change. UV added.

Sun: I did a 30% water change, fed them with brine shrimp. Their appetite has become normal!

 

[tjudy]

If there is an obvious improvement after a water change, then there is more evidence that the problem is a chemical. Whether the problem is a pollutant or an naturally produced problem (ammonia, nitrit, pH shift) is still not clear. Since you have the kits to monitor all the standard parameters, I doubt it is something associated with the nitrogen cycle or pH.

What about stray voltage? Heaters are not well grounded, neither are most power filters or power heads. If you are in an older building the plug in teh wall might not be well grounded either. Stray voltage has been known to cause problems, including several of the symptoms you described. Personally, I have never given it much thought in my own aquariums, but know know a few other people in older homes who have experienced stray voltage problems. Reef keepers are apparently thinking about it all the time. I am not sure how to test for it. Will a standard electrician's voltmeter work? There are product sold to ground aquariums and protects them from stray voltage.