So dicouraged in breeding, please help

[orkunk]

Hello All;

I've great troubles in successfully breeding Apistogrammas. Lastly, I was having 1 agassizii female with a Tefe red back male in my 80 L display tank. Other fish in the display tank are:

• 7 Harlequin rasboras
• 3 Sterbai corydoras
• 1 pair of Endler's guppies with more than 20 fry which were born only a week ago
• 3 otocinclus

I also have another agassizzi male which had lost its chance and resting in a 20 L quarantine tank alone. He had lost his chance because in the beginning they were together with the female in the display tank. There were more than 5-6 unsuccessful spawning trials by them in which the eggs were eaten always within 48 hours. So, I decided that the agassizii male is infertile or something and bought another male, the Tefe red back. (NOTE: I am not 100% sure about the id of the fish, I am only repeating what I have been told by the local fish store I bought them)

The Tefe red back male and agassizii female did quite good actually. The male was very aggressive at first and he was desperately looking for a chance to spawn. However, the female was the shy one and she was constantly escaping from him in the tank. One day, I noticed that the female is not around and I immediately checked the coconut shell cave. YES !!! She was there with another batch of eggs on the ceiling. In the first 24 hours, I noticed the interaction between the male and female. The male was trying to defend the close vicinity of the cave by darting on any Sterbai cories or Endler's guppies coming near. However, from time to time he was also causing the female to come out in a furious way by trying to get into the cave. Then, I decided to separate the male for the first time to give a try to this method. I put the Tefe red back male near the agassizii male in the quarantine tank, hoping that there are enough number of coconut shells, driftwood pieces and clay pots for the two of them to stay away from each other. (definitely was a wrong thought)

After the separation of the male and leaving a night lamp on all through the nights which is some kind of trick I learned from this forum, the relief on the female was quite obvious and this gave me more courage that this time the spawning will be successful. And it was. Finally, after numerous unsuccessful trials, I was able to see the free swimming fry around the female in 6 days time after the first day of spawning. There were more than 15 fry that I could not count correctly.

Everything was going perfect and I was spending most of the day watching the female protecting the fry like crazy from any other fish which is even close accidentally. The fry and the female were out of the coconut cave and they were right at the bottom on the lava rock crumbles, somehere open in the middle of the tank. Mostly it was the corydoras who was bothering them, since they were continously entering her area while searching for food with their heads down on the substrate. And the Endler's guppy fry was also very curious and although they were too small to be a threat, they were also having the share of the mother's fury. One thing to note is that I did not turn the lights of the tank on for the first 24 hours of the free swimming fry. I let them with the night lamp only, since I thought this low light situation will help the female in her trial of keeping away other fish. The first free swimmers were seen on July 24th morning. And I only turned the lamps on the next day (July 25th) afternoon. However, stress was building up on me because I was not able to see as many fry as yesterday. Only 4-5 of them I was able to see. Then I noticed that the female was going in and out of the coconut shell from time to time. And ı thought that the clever girl put the fry back inside the cave where it is more secure than open swimming area of the tank. Unfortunately, I think I was wrong. Because yesterday (July 26th) I spend the whole day without being able to see only one fry and even the behaviour of the female apisto has changed. She stopped guarding and she was disinterested about any other fish in the tank. These observations make me to believe that I have lost the fry again, although I was able to make them hatch out of their eggs. Where am I doing wrong? Please, any expert advice will be appreciated.

Some notes about the tank and water are:

• tank is heavily planted with live plants
• CO2 injection by a yeast/sugar system is being made
• 100 % Reverse Osmosis water is used
• GH and kH are around 1-1,5 degrees and pH is around 6
• an Eheim external filter is used which is way higher in capacity than the tank size. It is run in less than its half capacity not to have to much current
• temperature of the tank is aroun 27 degrees Celcius (no heater is on, only 1-1,5 degrees changes occur during morning-night ambient temperature cahnges)
• Brustmann Humacid, SeaChem Fresh Trace, SeaChem Flouris, SeaChem Flouris Excel, SeaChem Flourish Nitrogen, Aquarium Münster Stress Protect are some of the water conditioners/additives being used
• before the free swimming fry were observed, some SeaChem Acid Regulator were disolved and added into the tanks since the pH was measured to be slightly higher than 6.
• no water change had been performed during this 1 week of spawning period. Only fresh R/O water is added to compensate the evaporation

Sorry for taking this much time of yours but I wanted to give you even the smallest detail in order to be sure to figure out where have I been wrong.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

 

[Hassles]

Hello All;

I've great troubles in successfully breeding Apistogrammas. Lastly, I was having 1 agassizii female with a Tefe red back male in my 80 L display tank. Other fish in the display tank are:

• 7 Harlequin rasboras
• 3 Sterbai corydoras
• 1 pair of Endler's guppies with more than 20 fry which were born only a week ago
• 3 otocinclus

I also have another agassizzi male which had lost its chance and resting in a 20 L quarantine tank alone. He had lost his chance because in the beginning they were together with the female in the display tank. There were more than 5-6 unsuccessful spawning trials by them in which the eggs were eaten always within 48 hours. So, I decided that the agassizii male is infertile or something and bought another male, the Tefe red back. (NOTE: I am not 100% sure about the id of the fish, I am only repeating what I have been told by the local fish store I bought them)

The Tefe red back male and agassizii female did quite good actually. The male was very aggressive at first and he was desperately looking for a chance to spawn. However, the female was the shy one and she was constantly escaping from him in the tank. One day, I noticed that the female is not around and I immediately checked the coconut shell cave. YES !!! She was there with another batch of eggs on the ceiling. In the first 24 hours, I noticed the interaction between the male and female. The male was trying to defend the close vicinity of the cave by darting on any Sterbai cories or Endler's guppies coming near. However, from time to time he was also causing the female to come out in a furious way by trying to get into the cave. Then, I decided to separate the male for the first time to give a try to this method. I put the Tefe red back male near the agassizii male in the quarantine tank, hoping that there are enough number of coconut shells, driftwood pieces and clay pots for the two of them to stay away from each other. (definitely was a wrong thought)

After the separation of the male and leaving a night lamp on all through the nights which is some kind of trick I learned from this forum, the relief on the female was quite obvious and this gave me more courage that this time the spawning will be successful. And it was. Finally, after numerous unsuccessful trials, I was able to see the free swimming fry around the female in 6 days time after the first day of spawning. There were more than 15 fry that I could not count correctly.

Everything was going perfect and I was spending most of the day watching the female protecting the fry like crazy from any other fish which is even close accidentally. The fry and the female were out of the coconut cave and they were right at the bottom on the lava rock crumbles, somehere open in the middle of the tank. Mostly it was the corydoras who was bothering them, since they were continously entering her area while searching for food with their heads down on the substrate. And the Endler's guppy fry was also very curious and although they were too small to be a threat, they were also having the share of the mother's fury. One thing to note is that I did not turn the lights of the tank on for the first 24 hours of the free swimming fry. I let them with the night lamp only, since I thought this low light situation will help the female in her trial of keeping away other fish. The first free swimmers were seen on July 24th morning. And I only turned the lamps on the next day (July 25th) afternoon. However, stress was building up on me because I was not able to see as many fry as yesterday. Only 4-5 of them I was able to see. Then I noticed that the female was going in and out of the coconut shell from time to time. And ı thought that the clever girl put the fry back inside the cave where it is more secure than open swimming area of the tank. Unfortunately, I think I was wrong. Because yesterday (July 26th) I spend the whole day without being able to see only one fry and even the behaviour of the female apisto has changed. She stopped guarding and she was disinterested about any other fish in the tank. These observations make me to believe that I have lost the fry again, although I was able to make them hatch out of their eggs. Where am I doing wrong? Please, any expert advice will be appreciated.

Some notes about the tank and water are:

• tank is heavily planted with live plants
• CO2 injection by a yeast/sugar system is being made
• 100 % Reverse Osmosis water is used
• GH and kH are around 1-1,5 degrees and pH is around 6
• an Eheim external filter is used which is way higher in capacity than the tank size. It is run in less than its half capacity not to have to much current
• temperature of the tank is aroun 27 degrees Celcius (no heater is on, only 1-1,5 degrees changes occur during morning-night ambient temperature cahnges)
• Brustmann Humacid, SeaChem Fresh Trace, SeaChem Flouris, SeaChem Flouris Excel, SeaChem Flourish Nitrogen, Aquarium Münster Stress Protect are some of the water conditioners/additives being used
• before the free swimming fry were observed, some SeaChem Acid Regulator were disolved and added into the tanks since the pH was measured to be slightly higher than 6.
• no water change had been performed during this 1 week of spawning period. Only fresh R/O water is added to compensate the evaporation

Sorry for taking this much time of yours but I wanted to give you even the smallest detail in order to be sure to figure out where have I been wrong.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

I don't consider pure RO water is correct and I would also try reducing water movement. I have had trouble breeding agassizi and removed the cannister and replace this with sponges - I am now breeding with rapidlly growing fry. Also, what are the fry being fed ?

take care

 

[orkunk]

I did not have a chance to feed the fry. Actually, I think there is no possible feeding in the wriggler phase. And I was able to see them a little more than 24 hours. I started a batch of brine shrimp eggs, however, by the time the nauplii were present, the fry had gone.

Only chance for the fry for eating stg during their 1st free swimming day may be the very fine fry growing food of ELOS brand (SV 0) which I tried to pour on the area they were with their mother.

About the water movement, there is really low water moment currently in the tank. The output of the filter is adjusted as a spray bar also, and this reduces the strength of current further. Do you think even this much current is excess? Or was the change of canister filter with sponge filter the only parameter for you in changing your luck with breeding Apistos?

Thanks

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'd get a large chunk of Java moss, and leave it somewhere near the females cave. I'd then let her get on with it, no looking in the cave or trying to syphon off the fry etc. as long as your tank isn't too clean the fry will find stuff to pick at in the Java moss, and it should give them some protection as well. When the fry are large enough to take other food you can remove them if you wish.

This is another advantage of a sponge filter, it offers the fry feeding opportunities. The only other problem may be the Corydoras at night.

I'd also stop all the additives. If you are using CO2 you need to buffer your water up to 4 dKH. and you can always add oak (Quercus) leaves or Alder (Alnus) cones to add tannins and tint if you can't get sphagnum peat.

Details for the 4 dKH sol. are here: <http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm>

If you are interested in planted tanks the rest of the web site is worth looking at as well.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mike Wise]

Simple rules for successfully breeding apistos:

1. A community tank is not designed for breeding; use a breeding tank with only the parents and 1 or 2 small top-dwelling non-predatory target fish.
2. Breeding tanks do not need elaborate decoration, only some hiding/breeding places and a large clump of fine leaved plants (I find Java Moss the best).
3.Keep water chemistry simple: adjust the water to the species' requirements with minimal additives. Make regular (weekly, if possible) partial water changes.
4. Use sponge filters instead of power filters. My filters are air-driven (5-10 bubbles/second, which is sufficient and does not cause excess current. Fry waste energy when they have to swim in a current and their food is spread farther away. This energy is better used for growing. Sponge filters will provide some (but not enough) micro-organisms for the fry to eat.
5. Use a varied diet that includes live foods. Fry eat live foods better once they are freeswimming. They are attracted to the motion.
6. Use the same species! (Your Tefe Red-back is a different species from A. agassizii. Old breeding reports indicate that the Tefe X agassizii crosses produce small spawns, weak fry that rarely survive to maturity, and are mostly infertile if they do grow to maturity.)

For your specific case I would set up the 20Long tank with fine sand, many caves of different types, and a large clump of Java Moss. Filtration should be from an air-driven sponge filter, to minimize current. I would use RO water that was filtered through peat - no other chemicals. Your water should then be around pH6 and soft (but not RO soft). Put the female in the tank alone, or with 1 or 2 small target fish (I prefer pencilfish), for at least 1 week. Feed well with a mixed diet that includes live foods every day (I prefer newly hatched brine shrimp). After 1 week of good food and "owning" the tank, add the A. agassizii male - not the Tefe. The female will know all of the hiding places; the male will not. There will be less aggression at the start. If properly fed, the female should be ready to spawn. Once the pair spawn, remove the male. He is of no further use to the female and only causes her more problems. Do not bother the female and her eggs/fry for the first week. Just feed the tank. Any outside disturbance can cause her to eat the eggs. Feed the fry, once they become freeswimming, newly hatched brine shrimp at least 2X/day. Continue small partial water changes (5-10%) every day (do not clean the sand); remove the water from the top layer of the aquarium. Do not disturb the female any more than necessary. I hope this helps.

 

[Bilbo]

2nd ed.

Community tanks are not ideal at all
I find a well established tank much better than new but either way a specilty tank for them to breed in is important.
For me it works best if its slighly messy with some leaves disintegrating on the bottom and a bit of moss with a touch of algae perhaps but not dirty or smelly because it must have clean fresh water.
I prefer rain water (my wife and accountant prefer I use rain water) that I peat filter. Usually it ends up lovely light tea colour and about 5.5 - 6 pH.

 

[orkunk]

Hi everybody;

Thanks a lot for the valuable tips. More or less you've pointed out what I had concluded after my experiences. I was thinking to create a breeding layout only for apistos with no live plants, fine sand and blackwater. I only have the agassizii male now. Unfortunately, I could not save the Tefe male after he had been seriously beaten by the agassizii. Nevertheless, I will try to upload pictures of my female and male just to ask your opinions about the identities of them.

I also want to ask something about the peat filtration. All of you suggested me to use sponge, air driven filters. That's good. But how can we filter the tank water over peat then? Is it some kind of preliminary step while preparing replacement water or will it be performed continuously by a hang-over or canister filter?

Cheers

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I prefer rain water (my wife and accountant prefer I use rain water) that I peat filter. Usually it ends up lovely light tea colour and about 5.5 - 6 pH.

I use rain water as well, I tie the peat up in an old cotton pillow case, and just leave it in the water butt, after about 6 months I chuck the old peat on the garden. I got this method from UK Apistogramma breeding legend "Microman".

cheers Darrel

 

[Bilbo]

Sorry to hear about your male tefe. A lot of us have made the same mistake with agassizi and its amazing how protective and aggressive a female can be.

Most people use a handful of peat in a stocking or pantyhose just hung in one corner. If you put it close to the outlet for your sponge filter it will get a little bit of water movement and should work better.
Oak leaves scattered around the bottom of the tank are excellent and also provide some hiding places. Alder cones in the bottom also do a great job.

I would use oak leave more if I could get more of them. Peat can be messy in a filter or a tank.

The idea is always slow changes in water chemistry.

 

[lcwei96094]

seems like most of you use sponge filter. i find that sponge filter's filtration ability isn't that good and since then changed to canister filter. the water is much cleaner with canister filter but i am having a tough time in reducing its flow. i will try to use sponge filter again in my next setup.

 

[orkunk]

I see. Once I had tried leaving some peat inside a net in the tank. But then, I had concluded that there is no or very little water movement to carry out the desired organics in peat's texture and I gave up doing that. However, if the magic word is "slowly" here, than sure this method will fullfill that.

I have another question for friends who are familiar with hatching brine shrimp eggs.

How much does the quality (brand, hatch rate proposed by the manufacturer and etc.) of the eggs affect the result? Until now, I have tried two brands, namely Sera and Azoo cysts. I tried to hatch them both in a DIY plastic bottle equipment and some sort of simple plastic hatchery I bought from a local fish store. For preparing the hatchery water I used rock salt which is commonly used in pickle production (not table salt with iodine), unless it was supplied within the product together with the artemia eggs. I tried tap water, water from the aquarium itself, R/O water. Temperature I worked were around 27-28 degrees Celcius. Everytime, the results were unsatisfactory. The number of hatched eggs were too few that trying to harvest them without getting the shells or unhatched eggs was nearly impossible.

So I made a web search and found some USA companies like Brine Shrimp Direct, who are really pretentious about the high hatch rate (85-90 %) of their products. Of course, trying to get some goods from them will cost a fortune for me due to the shipment costs to Turkey. But if anyone of you would suggest that it would be worth it, I will do that. Because I am sick of poor cultures of brine shrimp which most of the time I even don't try to harvest the nauplii. Should I invest in quality brand artemia eggs and/or equipment in order to try to be a "legend" of my own in Apistogramma breeding world [huhh... that was quite an over blown frame :tongue:]

Cheers all

Cheers

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'd try the peat in a pillow case or ladies tights in the water container, it works very well, and keeps the peat out of the aquarium. If you want very persistent leaf litter and you can't find any Oaks, Loquat (Eriobotrya japonica) leaves are very good, but they don't reduce the pH the way oak bark or oak leaves would.

If you can't get hold of good quality brine shrimp eggs (or can't store them? I don't use them now, but I always stored the container in a sealed bag in the the freezer) you could try micro-worms, the very easily cultured nematode worms.

Now I only have a few tanks I culture micro-worms, Grindal worms, Red worms and Daphnia, and I prepare buckets outside for Mosquito larvae and Blood-worms, and all the fish do well on this.

i find that sponge filter's filtration ability isn't that good and since then changed to canister filter. the water is much cleaner with canister filter but i am having a tough time in reducing its flow. i will try to use sponge filter again in my next setup.

You can always put a sponge filter on the intake of the power filter. Here is one I made for an Eheim 2213, it is a PPI10 sponge rectangle, sown up with nylon fishing line. Cheap and effective.

cheers Darrel

 

[lcwei96094]

Hi all,
I'd try the peat in a pillow case or ladies tights in the water container, it works very well, and keeps the peat out of the aquarium. If you want very persistent leaf litter and you can't find any Oaks, Loquat (Eriobotrya japonica) leaves are very good, but they don't reduce the pH the way oak bark or oak leaves would.

If you can't get hold of good quality brine shrimp eggs (or can't store them? I don't use them now, but I always stored the container in a sealed bag in the the freezer) you could try micro-worms, the very easily cultured nematode worms.

Now I only have a few tanks I culture micro-worms, Grindal worms, Red worms and Daphnia, and I prepare buckets outside for Mosquito larvae and Blood-worms, and all the fish do well on this.

You can always put a sponge filter on the intake of the power filter. Here is one I made for an Eheim 2213, it is a PPI10 sponge rectangle, sown up with nylon fishing line. Cheap and effective.

cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel,

It is the outflow that causing the water current. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Bilbo]

Hi Darrel,

It is the outflow that causing the water current. Thanks for the suggestion.

Use 2 sponge filters? a small tank like you describe with any canister filter is going to be to much water movement for breeding apistos so if you are worried about dirty water then change your feeding regime, food type or do more water changes.

If you determined to use the canister filter then do what Darrel said but put a sponge on the outlet as well.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Bilbo wrote

....but put a sponge on the outlet as well.

. He is correct you can diffuse the outflow very easily, either with a sponge, different spray bar, or by aiming the spray bar against the wall of the tank. I have some tanks with x20 filtering, (I just buy any size of 2nd hand/ damaged "Eheim classic" filters that appear locally), but the outflow is broken up by plants, decor etc and some areas of the tank are virtually still. If it was an empty tank it would look like a washing machine on wash, but once it is landscaped flow rates are much lower.

cheers Darrel