Preparing for apisto cacatuoides, Questions

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm not sure what the ideal pH is, it shouldn't take much of those peat pellets since 80% RO water has very little buffering. Since these are the offspring of wild apistos I want to try to match the pH and softness of their natural habitat as closely as possible.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting the water really soft and acidic for Apistogramma cacatuoides, they are "white water" Apistogramma and they breed in water at 5-6 dKH and pH above pH7, as long as they have a good diet, good water and lots of cover.

I'm not sure what the ideal pH is, it shouldn't take much of those peat pellets since 80% RO water has very little buffering.

As you get towards pure RO, pH becomes a fairly meaningless measurement, have a look at this post <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/ok.12048/>

I am a fan of Purigen so I will probably use that in there and a little of those peat pellets to drop the pH below 7.

If you use peat the Purigen is self-defeating, as the peat is adding the tannic and humic compounds that you want, and then the Purigen is removing them. Have a look at these 2 links, <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php> and <http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/humic-acids>, I'd recommend both web sites unreservedly.

cheers Darrel

 

[Cubeology]

Problem about reading too much information from too many sources in too short of time that it becomes impossible to conclusively determine the relative reliability of it. I must weigh everything I read from articles to opinions in forums and form my own conclusions. Mostly accepting the general consensus until I have enough experience with the species to develop my own biased opinions.

I was given the impression that requirements for tank strains of cacatuoides and wild bred strains are different. Since lower kH and lower pH is better regardless, I am making a reasonable attempt to achieve it by reasonable natural means.

The article on humic substances is interesting and simultaneously supports and contradicts what you say about mixing peat and Purigen. While it doesn't mention Purigen specifically, only carbon and resins working through ion-exchange, it implies that much of the blackwater effect is removed by such media, but the softening effect is not removed "If the humic molecule itself were adsorbed to granular activated carbon and then removed from the filter, some permanent water softening would be achieved." I would tend to believe this is true because the lower pH attained in tanks due to such things as driftwood are not negated by use of Purigen (based upon my own observation). Seachem seems to be the only source of information on how Purigen works and what it does, and since they are not very helpful in explaining exactly how their proprietary products work and what the precisely do, it leaves many questions. Since I am not looking for the blackwater effect and just the natural softening and pH altering effects I do not think that mixing peat and Purigen is entirely self-defeating. I guess the only way to gauge the effects is to add them separately and collect some empirical data. Based upon what everything I've absorbed so far I would come to the conclusion that the extra cleanliness caused by the Purigen would be more important than the modest softening and pH adjustment from the peat. This is especially true because the softening can be more easily achieved by using a higher proportion of RO.

I would go to a greater ratio of RO, but I have insufficient information on how much of the dissolved substances in the tap water are needed by my plants, and I don't want to remove everything and then use additives to put stuff back, which really seems self-defeating, and an additional expense which I must admit is an important consideration for me.

The fish will arrive in perhaps six hours, so having done all I can to get ready, my immediate concern will be their careful acclimatization to the new tank.

 

[Cubeology]

Well the little couple has been settled in. And "little" is the keyword, they are smaller than the black neon tetras they share the tank with. I haven't bothered them much leaving the lights off and all that, but one has effectively disappeared and the other takes some searching to locate. Not much color, not sure if that is because of their youth or the stress of shipping.

Much was said in this thread about the Finnex PX-360 Compact Canister filter, so I thought I would add my impressions now that I have it running. Any concerns about it causing too much water movement are completely unfounded, in fact I instead wonder if it is moving enough water. The spraybar distributes the water out of the filter widely enough that at no point is there any real "flow" of water. The intake does come with an included/optional sponge that is probably sufficient for protecting fry, but I think the larger ones I ordered separately will work better due to greater surface area. Assembly was complicated enough to require reading the instructions, but no serious chore. It simultaneously seems well constructed and flimsy, and I not sure which is the better description. It is made of a lot of lightweight parts, but the main canister seems very solid. I guess time will tell when it comes to durability. It is very quiet, at least right now being new.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Problem about reading too much information from too many sources in too short of time that it becomes impossible to conclusively determine the relative reliability of it. I must weigh everything I read from articles to opinions in forums and form my own conclusions. Mostly accepting the general consensus until I have enough experience with the species to develop my own biased opinions.

I know what you mean, and I'm not being funny, but you can trust the opinion of posters on this forum like Mike Wise, Ted Judy, Tom C, Steve Chesters ("ste12000"), Mark Breeze ("microman"), Larry Waybright ("apistomaster"), Gerald, Regani, Jaafaman etc. they have a combined experience of 100's of years of keeping and breeding Apistogramma spp.

First thing I do if I'm unsure about something is search through Mike Wise's posts.

Have a look at these 2 links, <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php> and <http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/humic-acids>, I'd recommend both web sites unreservedly.

This also why I linked these web-sites, I trust the experience of the authors.

I was given the impression that requirements for tank strains of cacatuoides and wild bred strains are different. Since lower kH and lower pH is better regardless, I am making a reasonable attempt to achieve it by reasonable natural means.

I don't think there is any problem at all with low pH, low KH, it just isn't as important for A. cacatuoides, as it is for some other species.

The article on humic substances is interesting and simultaneously supports and contradicts what you say about mixing peat and Purigen. While it doesn't mention Purigen specifically, only carbon and resins working through ion-exchange, it implies that much of the blackwater effect is removed by such media, but the softening effect is not removed "If the humic molecule itself were adsorbed to granular activated carbon and then removed from the filter, some permanent water softening would be achieved." I would tend to believe this is true because the lower pH attained in tanks due to such things as driftwood are not negated by use of Purigen (based upon my own observation). Seachem seems to be the only source of information on how Purigen works and what it does, and since they are not very helpful in explaining exactly how their proprietary products work and what the precisely do, it leaves many questions. Since I am not looking for the blackwater effect and just the natural softening and pH altering effects I do not think that mixing peat and Purigen is entirely self-defeating. I guess the only way to gauge the effects is to add them separately and collect some empirical data.

Obviously entirely up to you, but I'm pretty sure that the humic compounds that the "Purigen" removes are important for soft water fish in a number of ways. Have a look at these links <http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/dissolved-organics>, <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/looking-to-lower-ph-seachem-discus-buffer.11214/>.

Based upon what everything I've absorbed so far I would come to the conclusion that the extra cleanliness caused by the Purigen would be more important than the modest softening and pH adjustment from the peat. This is especially true because the softening can be more easily achieved by using a higher proportion of RO.

This is quite a complex area, a lot of use keep "dirty" tanks, but have very clean water, this seems a nonsensical statement, but the cleanliness really relates to maintaining a low biochemical oxygen demand (BOD) in the water. Have a look at this post (on Planetcatfish) <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35930> and Colin Dunlop's article <http://www.seriouslyfish.com/all-the-leaves-are-brown/>.

cheers Darrel

 

[regani]

Although I am flattered, a quick clarification is in order, I think.
I have kept apistos only for about 3.5 years, so my name doesn't quite belong with all the others Darrel mentioned, many of whom have decades of experience. I would always take their advice above my own opinions.
I do have a professional background in chemistry, however, so I can give reasonably informed advice in that area.

 

[Mike Wise]

Me? I've been keeping apisto for 35+ years. When I make recommendations, I tend to be on the conservative side. Whatever works for you and your fish are fine. No one has all of the answers.

 

[central tanks]

I decided I can would put in this cichlid stone I found in my old aquarium stuff from a krib I had 10 years back. I guess it's better to keep the apistos happy than satisify my desire to keep everything natural. Maybe it will attract some algae and look a little more natural.

My tank is rather narrow and tall, was wondering if a pair of dwarf gourami could satisfy the role of dither fish and leave apisto fry alone. I've had these gouramis before and I can't imagine them hunting around the lower levels of the tank for fry.

wrap the cave in java moss then it'll blend in with the plants