Plz help ID new D.Cichlids..

[capekate]

Hello, I am new here, but not to fish keeping. I have had GBRs before, but no other types of apisto's. Today I brought home from my LFS three d. cichlids. They said that two of them were Bolivian Rams, and the other a morph or mix. I have searched photos of Bolivians, and now doubt that this is what I have. But have not been able to ID these fish. Any help, so that I know what types I have would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you, ~ kate
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Wahcawin/rsz_Newfishapril5thbowsandapisto-2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Wahcawin/rsz_Newfishapril5thbowsandapisto-1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Wahcawin/rsz_Newfishapril5thbowsandapistos03.jpg

 

[aquaticclarity]

Welcome to the forum!

The first two pictures show a small jack dempsey ("Cichlasoma" octofasciatus). Sorry to say it's not a dwarf cichlid. Adults will reach the 5"-6" range with out a problem. It's a beautifull fish when an adult, but the can be a bit aggressive and love to dig.

The fish in the third photo looks like Apistogramma sp. "Steel Blue" It's a beautifull easy to keep Apisto. It's background is a little cloudy and it seems the fish is most likely a man made hydrid. It's often sold in stores as Apisto. borellii, but it's not that fish.

I search on this forum for "steel blue" will pull up all sorts of info and some pictures as well.

Even in the short term I would not recommend keeping the jack dempsey and the Apisto in the same tank if you can help it. The dempsey will grow very quickly and most likely make a meal of the Apisto.

But keep looking for dwarf cichlids. They are out there and well worth the search. It may help to find some pictures on line or better yet a book or two and take them along shopping to help weed out the big fish from the little ones. It's a shame so many stores and the people who supply the stores get the fish mixed up. But it does happen. Finding a non-chain store in your area and seeking out the "fish export" may also help you find some nice true dwarf cichlids.

Jeff

 

[capekate]

Welcome to the forum!

The first two pictures show a small jack dempsey ("Cichlasoma" octofasciatus). Sorry to say it's not a dwarf cichlid. Adults will reach the 5"-6" range with out a problem. It's a beautifull fish when an adult, but the can be a bit aggressive and love to dig.

The fish in the third photo looks like Apistogramma sp. "Steel Blue" It's a beautifull easy to keep Apisto. It's background is a little cloudy and it seems the fish is most likely a man made hydrid. It's often sold in stores as Apisto. borellii, but it's not that fish.

I search on this forum for "steel blue" will pull up all sorts of info and some pictures as well.

Even in the short term I would not recommend keeping the jack dempsey and the Apisto in the same tank if you can help it. The dempsey will grow very quickly and most likely make a meal of the Apisto.

But keep looking for dwarf cichlids. They are out there and well worth the search. It may help to find some pictures on line or better yet a book or two and take them along shopping to help weed out the big fish from the little ones. It's a shame so many stores and the people who supply the stores get the fish mixed up. But it does happen. Finding a non-chain store in your area and seeking out the "fish export" may also help you find some nice true dwarf cichlids.

Jeff

Hi Jeff, thank you for checking out the photos for me. I am more than surprised that they would sell me a JD as a D.cichlid. This is terrible. I will have to return it now. My puzzlement over the possiblity that it is a JD, is that the JD's that I have seen did not have such black wavy vertical lines as this fish does. Not sure if they even have the caudal fin black spot either. But I had a friend at another fish forum where I am a moderator tell me that it looks just like her JD looked like when it was a baby. I have researched JDs before, and agree this is not the fish for a D.cichlid tank..
I love the apisto's and want to get more of them. The LFS will have some GBRs and Double Reds in next week, and Im very excited at the chance to pick up some. Now I have to convince them that this is not a D.Cichlid, but a JD. Will they believe it or not? the one that looks like a steel blue, I researched some photos and agree, its very possible. A friend thought it looked like an apisto- Commbrae as well. Any thoughts on this?
below are recent photos that I took this evening. One is the same one in question, the other two photos are of the female, that I am not sure which type of apisto she is either? Any guess on that one for me? thanks so much, ~ kate

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Wahcawin/Newfishapril5thbowsandapistos041.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Wahcawin/Newfishapril5thbowsandapistos049.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Wahcawin/Newfishapril5thbowsandapistos050.jpg

 

[aquaticclarity]

Hi Kate,

Yep, juvenile jack dempseys (and most juvenile cichlids for that matter) look a little different when they are young when compared to full grow fish. Your's is most defiantly a young jack dempsey showing the very typical bars of a young Central American cichlid.

The second two photos in your second post show a young Thorichthys meeki AKA firemouth cichlid. This is another Central American cichlid that reaches the 4"-6" range. It's more peaceful then the dempsey but still isn't a great mix with true dwarf cichlids or other small fish.

Sounds like it's time to find a different store to shop at!

Your friend seeing A. combrae in the "steel blue" may not be to far off. A fish from the A. combrae complex is thought by many to be one of the possible fish used in creating this hybrid strain...assuming that "steel blue" is a hybrid.

Check out this recent thread for a picture of a "steel blue" and a few of the identifying marks to look for:

http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=7393&highlight="steel+blue"

Jeff

 

[ed seeley]

Hi Kate,
As the guys have said it's time to find a new source for your fish IMO. No fish shop should be selling these fish as Bolivian Rams or to someone as dwarf cichlids. The fact that they have sold you a Jack Dempsey and Firemouth as the same (wrong) species isn't a good sign at all either.
Take them back!
Ed.

 

[Mud Pie Mama]

Hi Kate,
As the guys have said it's time to find a new source for your fish IMO. No fish shop should be selling these fish as Bolivian Rams or to someone as dwarf cichlids. The fact that they have sold you a Jack Dempsey and Firemouth as the same (wrong) species isn't a good sign at all either.
Take them back!
Ed.

Agreed! It is very irresponsible for the fish shop to be doing this. I think it's downright deception. I would insist on speaking to the owner or manager when I returned them. They have an employee who has no qualms about deceiving their customers. Whether it is outright deception; or a complete ignoramous bluffing their way and unwilling to admit their lack of experience, the result is the same.

If I wanted to purchase a Chihuahua and ended up with a Great Dane I'd be extremely miffed!

 

[capekate]

Thank you so much for all the help. I agree, after doing research that I have a firemouth cichlid, and blue acara, possibly a JD.
I am very upset at this fish store and will be calling them today when they open. Now the problem is trying to convince them that their employer sold me the wrong fish. Sometimes they can be pretty defensive.
These are wonderful fish.. but not what I planned on keeping in my tank. I sure hope that they take them back. Wonder what kind of fish they are going to try to pass off as double reds and GBRs next week? At least I know what GBRs are supposed to look like!
I agree... after I try to get my money back.. its time to move on to another fish store! :wink:
Thanks so much for all your help! :biggrin:

 

[capekate]

Well, wanted you to know, that I just got off the phone with the fish store employee that sold me the fish. He was very nice about it all and said that he couldnt understand how the firemouth got in there, but is wiling to take it back when I come in. I also bought two turquoise rainbows that passed away this am after having them for 24 hours in the tank. He is going to give me either the store credit or a refund for those as well. He does not believe that the other fish in question is a JD as he has had it there for a long time and has other JDs there and said he can show me the JDs and see that it is not the same fish. Either way tho, he said I can bring them all back when I come in for the GBRs and the double red next weekend and he will give me the credit towards the new fish.
And about the possibility of one being a steel blue, he mentioned that an employee there thought it was a steel blue apisto hybrid.
So thats the news... thank you so much for all your help. Now I will have to bring these darlings back next weekend, which is a shame, as I do get attached to my fish quickly.. :frown:
~ kate

 

[Zack Wilson]

Those first couple fish are definitely juvenile Jack Dempseys, the other is a A. sp. "Steel Blue", as others said, and any store that can't properly identify JD's should not be in the business of selling fish. Even if a firemouth inexplicably got into the JD tank, their is no excuse for not seeing the difference during the netting and sale of this fish. These are not rare or exotic fish and should provide no opportunity for confusion. The defense offered over the phone sounds weak and may simply be back-tracking, butt-covering b.s.

It's nice to be understanding, but don't get walked over. One way or another, and it's really too bad, that store has certainly failed to earn your patronage.


...another suggestion I would offer is to invest in a simple reference for dwarf cichlids if you are interested in pursuing this avenue. Something like the Link & Staeck book by Tetra Press on Dwarf Cichlids, or the Cichlid Atlases by Uwe Romer, or the other Baensch Atlases for that matter, would all be worthwhile investments, as would an aqualog catalog of fishes. There are books in all price ranges, and I think the Link/Staeck book would give you plenty bang for the buck, and these will prove a valuable resource not only for ID but also for care info for your fishes once you find them.......actually, perhaps you could suggest the store does the same.

 

[capekate]

Hi Zack..
thank you for the book titles. I would love to get a good book on IDing these wonderful fish and so many of them have a wide assortment of different fish, its nice to be able to find one that is solely on D.Cichlids. I have at hand a wonderful book from my daughter in law gave me at Christmas, its the 500 freshwater Aquarium Fish by Greg Jennings. And it really is a great book with clear color photos on each page. I would love to find one like that on apisto's. Tho searching the internet and images, I can find all kinds of information on any fish and even tho in some ways it makes books almost obsolete, its great to have on hand a good book filled with the information you want asap.
I am upset for sure with this fish store, and your right. How could an employee that professes to know about D.Cichlids get these fish mixed up like he did. It does bother me for sure. I came home all excited at the prospect of adding these wonderful fish and now I have to disrupt them, put them back in the bag and bring them back next weekend to an empty tank at the fish store, and that bothers me a lot. They seem so happy to be in a decorated tank with driftwood, plants and its a shame for what they have to go through now. :frown:
I have almost thought about keeping these guys and just going with the 'big fish' but that is not what I planned on.. and its not what I wanted to keep in my 55g. My PH is very low at 6.4 and that is why I wanted to go with the S.A. Dwarfs because they do so well in my soft water.
It really does stun me that this fish store could pull such a mistake as this...
Like in an earlier post, at least I know what the double reds and the GBRs look like, and since Ive spent the money there already I will bring these fish back and add the ones that I wanted in the first place.
I will let him know how I feel and tell him that I sure hope it doesnt happen to anyone else.. but your right.. I think he really does not accept the mistake and is just giving me the ole customer is right bs and willing to exchange the fish for me.
BTW from another cichlid owner, I have been told that the fish in question looks like a blue Acara and not a JD. Another friend told me that it looks just like her JD did when it was a juvie. Any thoughts on this possiblity? Not that it matters, they both will not do well with my plans for D.Cichlids.

~ kate

 

[Zack Wilson]

I can understand some confusion between CA cichlids, since they do share certain traits, but that's a JD. The markings and morphological characteristics aren't right for a blue acara, and having seen way too many 1,000's of JD's, I can spot 'em pretty easily, as can others. As you said, though, not much difference to your plans.

Giving the store in question the benefit of the doubt, they simply didn't know better and didn't recognize one cichlid from another, but it's not out of the realm of possibilities that they just don't care.

 

[capekate]

Hi Zack,
I was referred here to this site, and after reading and browsing through for about 6 months one thing I became very aware of and that is that most of the folks here really do know their apistos. I know that I can browse the topics and find so much information. That is why I came here soon after buying these fish, if anyone could ID these for me, I knew that someone here would be able to!
I will take your word and knowledge on it, that this fish is in fact a JD juvie.
Im so disappointed that I have to now take these cute guys back to the fish store and too think a JD? I have seen adults and never would have guessed that this wee tiny thing is a JD, and never would have even thought of adding one to my tank. This is just another horror story of bad fish stores. And here I thought I was doing good by staying out of the chain stores.
This has been so stressful...on me and now again (when I bag these little guys which is going to be hard to do in the planted tank, I can just imagine the 'fun' this is going to be)... on these poor lil guys.
I cant wait to see what the Bolivians and the GBRs look like when the shipment comes in there... But I will be prepared...
thanks again for your help and advice... ~ kate

 

[RHS788]

If you do a search on the net of any fish you are trying to identify, there should be tons of pictures and sometimes videos available.

I use ask jeeves as a search engine. It seems I get fewer adds.

Good luck.


Randy