Pebas/Papageien/Roca-Eterna?

[czarteros]

This is my first post on this forum so let me say hello to everybody.
Now, let me move to my question. What species are presented on the pictures below?

"1'st species

Male:


Female:


2'nd species

Male:


Female:


Pair:

Before I posted my question I went through several threads on this forum. My observations are:
- The shapes of the caudal patches of the females suggest me that both the species are not A.sp. Pebas (the caudal patch should look like a teardrop at Pebas)
- The pale markings on the middle part of the male tails suggest me that both species are not A sp. Papageien (this kind of marking never appear on Papageien)
Based on some other discussionss on this forum one can come to the conclusion that all my fishes belong to A. sp. Roca-Eterna (if I am right). On the other hand, there are noticeable differences between species 1 and 2:
- The caudal spots of species 1 females are considerably taller than those of species 2 (the twisted 8 is wider)
- The bodies of species 1 males are bit deeper, they are less colorful than species 2 male (I have one male)
The fishes came from Peru as:
- Algodon – species 1
- Papagallo – species 2

Thank you for any help,
Bolek

 

[Mike Wise]

I took 20 minutes looking at your photos. Based on what I see:

1st species male - A. sp. Pebas (neither A. sp. Papagei nor Roca Eterna show a pattern in the caudal)
1st species female - probably A. sp. Papagei (the number, size and shape of the lateral spots are like female A. sp. Papagei)

2nd species male - Probably A. sp. Pebas (it has caudal pattern).
2nd species female - Probably A. sp. Pebas (the number, size and shape of the lateral spots are like female A. sp. Pebas. I must say that the caudal patch on the female is odd; a bit large).

IF (a big if) some forms of A. sp. Roca Eterna are discovered that show a pattern in the caudal fin of the male, then there is a good chance that the 2nd species is A. sp. Roca Eterna.

I wish I could be more helpful.

 

[czarteros]

Thank you for your reply, Mike. It is interesting what you write. After having red it I opened Romer s Book (vol . II). Here is what I found about A. sp. Algodon:
“The fishes offered under this label are usually a mixture of half-grown specimens of two Apistogramma species that have by now become very well-known in the aquarium hobby and which can be extremely variable in their coloration and markings, namely Apistogramma sp. “Pebas” and Apistogramma sp. Nanay”
The above is compliant with your identification of what I called “species 1”. (I am fully aware of the dispute, regarding the Papagei/Nanay names, but it does not matter in this case). What is interesting is that I have 2 males and 3 females of “species 1”. Both males (presented on the photos) show the caudal patterns (therefore they represent A. sp. Pebas), all the 3 females show identical caudal patches (i.e. they belong to A. sp. Papagei). Furthermore, I recently visited the importer who still has some fishes of this import. All the female patches (where shown) are identical. His males are too small for me to say anything about the caudal pattern. This suggest me that we have a mixture of females A. sp. Papagei and ales of A. sp. Pebas. A coincidence?
Anyway, it seems that I have 3 males of the same species (one definitely of different color morph) which is A. sp. Pebas, 3 females of A. sp. Pebas and 3 females of A. sp. Papagei. I currently keep each of the males in different tanks: one with 1 female of A. sp. Papagei, one with 2 females of A. sp. Papagei and one with 3 females of A. sp. Pebas (I also have about 40 2-month-old juveniles of the last group which a keep in a separate tank). I am thinking of what I should do. Any configuration is possible as I have several tanks available, one of them even as huge as 550l (220x50x50cm). Getting males of A. sp. Papagei in my country is extremely difficult. Any advices will be very welcome.

Bolek

 

[Mike Wise]

Most exporters in Peru try to keep males and females in separate tanks. This makes it easier for the baggers to pull pairs for shipment. It is possible that a bagger pulled males of A. sp. Pebas and mistakenly pulled females from a tank of Papagei (obviously the species are not easy for most people to separate). Another likely possiblity is that the exporter ran out of one sex and substituted the other.

If they were my fish, I would keep the sexes that were from the same tank together. Offer the fry as "A. sp. Pebas", but you might want to let people know that your not sure about 'species 1'.