Pair Bonding Species

[Trademark_Aquatics]

Hey guys,
I have kept a few species of apistogramma now and have experienced what I have seen on the forum described as more polygamous type behavior (i.e. the male is somewhat aggressive towards a female if she is not ready to spawn). But I have seen it mentioned that there are more monogamous type species out there. Can anyone provide some species that tend to be more monogamous or form pair bonds beyond 1 spawn?

Thank you guys in advance for the help.

 

[MacZ]

The closest you will get are species of the A. nijsseni-group, namely A. nijsseni, A. panduro and to a degree A. baenschi. These are different from the rest in that the females choose their mate and can be quite picky but stay together longer and have more involvement of the male in brooding. It sometimes takes a few attempts with different males until one is accepted, but in contrast to the polygamous species they usually react with ignorance or low level aggression if he male isn't to their liking.

But that's basically it.

 

[anewbie]

They aren't really pair forming as much as the male is not aggressive to female. I believe all Nijjensi complex fishes fall into this category. For my wolli the male is terrified of the females For my Ladisalo they all (I have 7 or 8 in a 40) hang out in one large group though the females are a bit more territorial and will snap at each other. My understanding is nijjensi are quite aggressive and you would only want 2 (I only had 2) but having more than 2 and the female can be quite aggressive to the others. Also it is said the female can be picky that is she might not like the male though when i've had just two there never been an issue. Hum - some vendor sell panduro and nijjensi as trio and i think that is a mistake for if you get a trio you will have to remove the third wheel eventually or the other female will remove her for you if you prefer.

There are more passive species where it is not really a big deal if the male is polygamous or not and there are more aggressive fishes where you really require very good hiding places or someone will die and I suppose that is the advantage of a nijjensi complex species as that is almost a non-issue unless of course you are unlucky and the female decides she no longer likes the male. Still if you have had angelfishes - it is not quite that bad as with angels when she no longer likes the male - even in a large aquarium of 6 ft either you remove the male or you have a dead male.

 

[Mike Wise]

Let's get this straight. There are no known apisto species that form mated pairs. Those like many nijsseni-group species will form breeding pairs where a male and female join for breeding and joint protection of the fry. If successful, they can repeat the process many times, but if for some reason it is unsuccessful they will part ways and look for a more suitable breeding partner. If they can't find a suitable new partner they may just ignore each other or try to drive the other away. The closest that I've experienced at being preferentially monogamous are some species in the pertensis- and iniridae-groups.

 

[anewbie]

Let's get this straight. There are no known apisto species that form mated pairs. Those like many nijsseni-group species will form breeding pairs where a male and female join for breeding and joint protection of the fry. If successful, they can repeat the process many times, but if for some reason it is unsuccessful they will part ways and look for a more suitable breeding partner. If they can't find a suitable new partner they may just ignore each other or try to drive the other away. The closest that I've experienced at being preferentially monogamous are some species in the pertensis- and iniridae-groups.

I'm curious about this - i have a sp blutkel which is the only iniridae group fish i've owned. I would say that i see nothing that even approach pair like behavior other than the male is relatively docile compare to some other species i've owned. The female does all parent raising - she requests that the male stay away and he mostly limits himself to a small area of the 20 long- i would not say that either fish is super aggressive to each other but both do minor chasing. When I first got them the female laid out a cave that was her and while there was no breeding for 3 to 6 months (i fail to write these things down); the rule seemed to be that if the female went in her cave the male was to stop harassing her outside the cave he would show his fins and do a bit of chasing but nothing that i considered excessive. About the only parent raising i've seen from the male is he allows the older frys to hang out in his area while the female works on a new spawn.

Now it might be there are more pair like species than this one in the group but it is nothing like the pair like behavior i see from my l. araguaiae where both guard the frys and take turn eating. To a degree the male was more likely to guard the frys than the female at times (they are in a community 180). Well at least the last pair to spawn - the other pair the female does more guarding while the male spends more time goofing off so i guess to some degree it comes down to individual fish though both do some guarding.

In case you are wondering for the l. araguaiae the 'territory' is roughly 5 feet apart in a 6 foot aquarium (72x30). And it mostly works i think.

 

[Trademark_Aquatics]

Thank you guys for the information. I understand there are no species that will pair for life. What a treat that would be. I also understand they can be quite finicky and unpredictable. Some fish just don't like to behave the way the internet says they should. Which i suppose is what makes them so enjoyable to keep. But I am finally getting around to adding another tank and I am trying to get some ideas for the next species that I would like to keep. It's sounds like I may try to find some from the iniridae or pertensis groups as Mike has mentioned as I don't believe I have kept any of those species yet. Or possibly another nijjseni species that I haven't kept before.

 

[anewbie]

Thank you guys for the information. I understand there are no species that will pair for life. What a treat that would be. I also understand they can be quite finicky and unpredictable. Some fish just don't like to behave the way the internet says they should. Which i suppose is what makes them so enjoyable to keep. But I am finally getting around to adding another tank and I am trying to get some ideas for the next species that I would like to keep. It's sounds like I may try to find some from the iniridae or pertensis groups as Mike has mentioned as I don't believe I have kept any of those species yet. Or possibly another nijjseni species that I haven't kept before.

Keyholes are said to pair for life

 

[Trademark_Aquatics]

Interesting. No offense to any Keyhole lovers out there but they just don't do it for me. I'm happy keeping my apistos no matter how disfunctional their relationships might be. And who knows maybe that dream species just has yet to be discovered

 

[MacZ]

Keyholes are said to pair for life

Not the case, I can confirm. They are rather predestined for keeping in a group and they need quite roomy tanks at one point. Just because they can grow quite big.

It's sounds like I may try to find some from the iniridae or pertensis groups as Mike has mentioned as I don't believe I have kept any of those species yet.

Just keep in mind they are true softwater fish, pure RO or rainwater would be necessary to really make them shine and keep their health up longterm.

 

[Mike Wise]

I'm curious about this - i have a sp blutkel which is the only iniridae group fish i've owned. I would say that i see nothing that even approach pair like behavior other than the male is relatively docile compare to some other species i've owned.

As I wrote, "The closest that I've experienced at being preferentially monogamous are some species in the pertensis- and iniridae-groups". Note that I underlined "preferentially". One example I had was a new species in 1979, now described as A. iniridae. I got 5 specimens, 5 males and 1 female. This female reproduced many fry, but only with one of the males, the smallest. Once he died, she would not breed with any of the other males although they all tried to entice her.

The female does all parent raising

This is quite normal for apistos. The male's job is to guard her smaller brood territory that typically is in his lager territory. For apistos a 'breeding pair' is for breeding success only. It is different from a 'mated pair' of fish that jointly share care of the fry.

 

[KenL]

As I wrote, "The closest that I've experienced at being preferentially monogamous are some species in the pertensis- and iniridae-groups". Note that I underlined "preferentially". One example I had was a new species in 1979, now described as A. iniridae. I got 5 specimens, 5 males and 1 female. This female reproduced many fry, but only with one of the males, the smallest. Once he died, she would not breed with any of the other males although they all tried to entice her.

This is quite normal for apistos. The male's job is to guard her smaller brood territory that typically is in his lager territory. For apistos a 'breeding pair' is for breeding success only. It is different from a 'mated pair' of fish that jointly share care of the fry.

Were they all in the same tank? What size was it?

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, all in the same tank, a 20 long, of which the female controlled much of it. She only allowed the small male in her territory; the others were stopped by the female, often with the help of the small male.

 

[anewbie]

Not the case, I can confirm. They are rather predestined for keeping in a group and they need quite roomy tanks at one point. Just because they can grow quite big.

I keep 7 in a 180; they don't seem to need anything larger than that but of course these things like roomy are relative. They are with the 6 l. araguaiae (of which there are 2 pairs). Of course my thought process was i would trim the groups to 4 and 4 once i figured out what was going on but as is the case with such logic - i forgot to figure out how i would actually get them out of the aquarium. The floor space is 72inch x 30 inch.

 

[Trademark_Aquatics]

I keep 7 in a 180; they don't seem to need anything larger than that but of course these things like roomy are relative.

Very relative indeed. Roomy for me at the moment would be a 40 breeder. Looking forward to changing that in the future though.

Just keep in mind they are true softwater fish, pure RO or rainwater would be necessary to really make them shine and keep their health up longterm.

Really need to get a system set up. But I do have a LFS that does some saltwater stuff so they sell RO by the gallon. Just makes water changes on the softwater species more of a chore.

 

[anewbie]

Just keep in mind they are true softwater fish, pure RO or rainwater would be necessary to really make them shine and keep their health up longterm.

I've only had mine for a year now for a year minus 2 weeks - i guess they were young adults when received so perhaps 18 to 20 months old. Not sure how long they will live hopefully longer than tomorrow but i have about a 1.5 gazillion frys in there - eventually i'll have to ask a few to leave. Not sure how they will react - i'm going to upgrade the 20 long to a 60ish (48x16) in Jan - so i guess i'll deal with it then - some of the frys are up to 1/4 of an inch so at some point they are going to be noticed.
--
Not a colourful fish but i like the overall personality - not beggers like the winkelfleck but not 99% hiders like the wolli:

 

[Trademark_Aquatics]

I've only had mine for a year now for a year minus 2 weeks - i guess they were young adults when received so perhaps 18 to 20 months old. Not sure how long they will live hopefully longer than tomorrow but i have about a 1.5 gazillion frys in there - eventually i'll have to ask a few to leave. Not sure how they will react - i'm going to upgrade the 20 long to a 60ish (48x16) in Jan - so i guess i'll deal with it then - some of the frys are up to 1/4 of an inch so at some point they are going to be noticed.
--
Not a colourful fish but i like the overall personality - not beggers like the winkelfleck but not 99% hiders like the wolli:

View attachment 15369

Beautiful fish. Which species is that exactly? They remind me of a checkardboard which I love also. Are you keeping them in pure RO as Mac suggested?
If you need somewhere to rehome a few fry when the time is right let me know

 

[anewbie]

Beautiful fish. Which species is that exactly? They remind me of a checkardboard which I love also. Are you keeping them in pure RO as Mac suggested?
If you need somewhere to rehome a few fry when the time is right let me know

a. sp Blutkehl - they are in pure ro water - ec is around 25 and ph is likely around 5 - i'll have to get rid of quite a few frys by spring but right now i dont' want to think about it. I guess if you live in usa i could put some in a bag and send them if that is what you are asking. But i wont' use heat thingy so it'll have to wait till both locations have reasonable temp. Also i'm keeping them a bit warm - around 80 since they are equator fish but i haven't sexed out the fry to see what the mix is - i'm worried it might be male heavy which suggest i should lower the temp.

 

[Trademark_Aquatics]

a. sp Blutkehl - they are in pure ro water - ec is around 25 and ph is likely around 5 - i'll have to get rid of quite a few frys by spring but right now i dont' want to think about it. I guess if you live in usa i could put some in a bag and send them if that is what you are asking. But i wont' use heat thingy so it'll have to wait till both locations have reasonable temp. Also i'm keeping them a bit warm - around 80 since they are equator fish but i haven't sexed out the fry to see what the mix is - i'm worried it might be male heavy which suggest i should lower the temp.

I am really trying to resist the urge to order some fish right now. Having a new tank set up and waiting it becomes very tempting. But the weather is definitely less than ideal right now. I am in the US but I was mostly just messing around. However when the time comes and you do feel like shipping I probably would take you up on that.
Quick question also. I don't have an EC meter yet. Do you find measuring the EC to be more useful when dealing with low PH values?

 

[anewbie]

I am really trying to resist the urge to order some fish right now. Having a new tank set up and waiting it becomes very tempting. But the weather is definitely less than ideal right now. I am in the US but I was mostly just messing around. However when the time comes and you do feel like shipping I probably would take you up on that.
Quick question also. I don't have an EC meter yet. Do you find measuring the EC to be more useful when dealing with low PH values?

I just spot check the EC; i never monitor ph and believe that ph is a false value - as multiple things can modify ph some of which the fish care about (i suspect carbonate) and some they might not care about (co2). I do have 3 ph pens on 3 different tanks for historical reasons but i just don't trust their accuracy. The ones on blackwater aquariums do measure right around 4.9 to 5.1 consistency across two tanks (the third is not blackwater). I would guess i measure EC about once every 6 months on a couple of aquariums - just to make sure nothing is building up/leaching or the ro system as a whole needs the filter replaced. For example i have one of my blackwater aquarium running around ec 51 and i suspect something is leaching but just not sure what - maybe a rock. Not sure ec 51 is not the end of the world but it is rather high all things considered. Unfortunately it is a 65 gallon and the layout is a bit overly complex so it would require a bit of effort just to find and remove all the rocks - so i'm keeping an eye on that one.

 

[Trademark_Aquatics]

I just spot check the EC; i never monitor ph and believe that ph is a false value - as multiple things can modify ph some of which the fish care about (i suspect carbonate) and some they might not care about (co2). I do have 3 ph pens on 3 different tanks for historical reasons but i just don't trust their accuracy. The ones on blackwater aquariums do measure right around 4.9 to 5.1 consistency across two tanks (the third is not blackwater). I would guess i measure EC about once every 6 months on a couple of aquariums - just to make sure nothing is building up/leaching or the ro system as a whole needs the filter replaced. For example i have one of my blackwater aquarium running around ec 51 and i suspect something is leaching but just not sure what - maybe a rock. Not sure ec 51 is not the end of the world but it is rather high all things considered. Unfortunately it is a 65 gallon and the layout is a bit overly complex so it would require a bit of effort just to find and remove all the rocks - so i'm keeping an eye on that one.

Gotcha. I have always been paranoid about my ph crashing or just being unstable in general but the more i read on the forum it sounds like I might be over thinking it? I haven't had much of an issue yet an admittedly have really dialed back how much I test. But I have been really considering getting an ec meter just to see where my tanks are sitting currently.