Need apisto ID and sexing

[Kamikazi]

I need help with these apistos.

What type are they and are they male or female?

I'm pretty sure this one is female, it was yellow at the store.
Apisto Female?

This one I think is male, again no idea what type it is.
Apisto Male?

Thanks

 

[Mike Wise]

First, welcome to the apisto forum. Now I will give you my opinions. The videos really aren't the best, but from what I see you have 2 females of 2 different species. The first appears to be a female A. atahualpa; the second appears to be a female A. cf. eunotus.

 

[Kamikazi]

First, welcome to the apisto forum. Now I will give you my opinions. The videos really aren't the best, but from what I see you have 2 females of 2 different species. The first appears to be a female A. atahualpa; the second appears to be a female A. cf. eunotus.

I'll try to get higher quality video. I reduce the quality b/c the file is much larger when shooting HD. Can you explain your thoughts as to why you think they are both female? What do you look for? As far as the types, I looked at pictures and wow apistos can be hard to tell apart.

 

[Mike Wise]

OK, since you asked. The first fish shows the body shape, and dark markings typical of an atahualpa-group fish. Its size indicates that it is mature. Male A. atahualpa will show longer, more pointed tips on the dorsal, anal, and ventral fins. It will also develop elongated anterior dorsal fin spines, which your fish does not show. Your fish also shows a great amount of black on the ventral fins, typical of females, but not males. Therefore, it is a female. It is not A. huascar, another member of the atahualpa-group. The caudal spot is too small. It is not A. barlowi or A. sp. Kelleri either. These are the mouthbrooding species in the atahualpa-group. Females of A. barlowi shows a round caudal fin (like your fish); A. sp. Kelleri develops tips on the top and bottom of the caudal fin. Both A. sp. Kelleri and A. barlowi have a proportionally larger head compared to the body (related to mouthbrooding?).

The second fish shows characteristics of the regani-group. The video isn't good enough for a positive species ID, but the black spines on the ventral fins are typical of females of the regani-group. I cannot positively ID the fish from the poor video, but I think I see a split Bar 6 at times. The split Bar 6 is one of the features diagnostic for eunotus-subcomplex species. Since A. cf. eunotus, is the most commonly imported/sold eunotus-subcomplex species, it probably is this species.

Yes, apistos can be hard to tell apart. It takes care examination of the species or decent photos. My IDs are based on 40 years of keeping and studying apistos.

 

[Kamikazi]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I took some pictures when I got home this evening. First, You will see the one I thought was male (one you think is a female atahuapla) You can see the 3 different color variations I have noticed. I'll call them dark, medium and light. Dark is usually when its roaming the tank looking for food or chasing the other apisto. Medium I guess is the between the light and dark change. Light is when it saw itself in the glass and started showing off to itself.
Dark

Dark-2

Medium

Medium-2

Light

Light-2

 

[Kamikazi]

Here are the pictures of the one I was pretty sure was female and you said was female eunotus.

2

3

4

5

 

[Mike Wise]

I think you got it confused. The video linked as "Apisto Male?" is the one that shows what I thought was a regani-group species. The video linked as "Apisto Female?" is the one that shows what I thought was a female A. atahualpa. Please re-check the first post to see if I'm correct.

Now, with much better photos, I think I can ID your fish. You were right, the first (regani-group) fish is a male. It is a male of the eunotus-subcomplex (of the eunotus-complex, of the regani-group). The fish shows a split Bar 6, diagnostic for this subcomplex. It is a form of A. cf. eunotus with stripes in the caudal, commonly labeled A. cf. eunotus Schwanzstreifen/Tail-stripes. The second set of photo still exhibits all of the characteristics of a female A. atahualpa. Hope this helps.

 

[Kamikazi]

Yup, I got confused. I dunno why but I thought I posted the video of the male first and female second in my OP.

Anyway, thank you for the IDs. Now the question is how hard would it be to find mates for either of these. I like the colors on the eunotus. The problem is the fish store was selling these as assorted apistos and there is no way to accurately get them ID'd till you get them home and the get comfortable and color-up. The store said I could swap them out for known apistos.

They have a bunch of male 'steel blues' which they have labeled as steel blue borellii, I'm aware that they aren't really related to borellii. I read up on them and know about the debate hybrid vs natural. The store doesnt have any females but said they could get some. Other than that they didn't have any known apistos in stock as of Tuesday, but I could have them get some.

What are your thoughts? Should I try to find a mate for either of the ones I currently have, go for the steel blues or wait and try to get a different type altogether. I do lean towards apistos with blue color.

 

[Kamikazi]

Oh also none of the pictures I have seen show either type of fish having the black spot in the middle dorsal fins. Is that a sign of hybridization or just coincidence.

 

[Kamikazi]

I saw your reply in that other thread about multiple steel blues in the 29. Are male steel blues colorful when they are breeding and when they are not? If so and since I'm not seriously interested in breeding then I'm leaning toward swapping what I got for two male steel blues OR swapping out the female atahualpa for a steel blue male, making sure I have lots of leaves and rocks.

I have a pair of angelfish in there right now, but I might move them or sell them. If I got them out of the 29 would it be possible to have two male steel blues OR the male eunotus and male steel blue along with a Bolivian ram or is that too much? Thanks.

 

[Mike Wise]

Well, it might be hard to find a female A. cf. eunotus (Schwanzstreifen/tail-stripes). This form (species?) is not common in the trade. A male A. atahualpa would be much easier to find. In the end, it is up to you to decide what you like and want.

The black patch on your fish is not uncommon on wild Peruvian fish. No one knows for certain what causes it. Most consider it just an aberration and not something to worry about. It doesn't really seem to bother the fish or shorten their life.

A. sp. Steel-blue is one of those odd fish. It first appeared as commercially bred fish from Singapore. Nothing quite like them occurs in the wild. Both males & females are colorful. When originally introduced there were almost no females. These oddities caused Asian hobbyists to think that it was a hybrid species, sort of like Flowerhorns. According to Römer (2000) the German breeders initially produced their Steel-blues from Asian males and 'A. caetei' females. Female Steel-blue Apistos are quite prolific, which indicates that this form is either a color enhanced domestic strain single species or a cross between 2 very closely related species. No one knows for certain except the original breeders and they aren't talking. It should be possible to mix a Steel-blue with either or both of the other fish in a 29, but it will require careful attention to proper decor.

 

[Kamikazi]

Thanks Mike you have been a big help. I think my plan will be to trade the female for a male steel blue for now. I'm going to collect a few more rocks today/tomorrow to make a few more caves and crevices. Add more leaves as well.