my lucky day

[fishgeek]

have been offered some A Elizbethea at fantastic price(20£ a pair) and was wondeing if anyone with experience of keeping these fish could advise me on a suitable set up
I have read that they are delicate although if this just means need clean water then that will be ok
Are they as hardy as other apisto species ?
Do they require more acdic softer water

How much space would be advisable for 2 pair , supposedly, still juvenile and not much over 1 inch in length

Will the males be aggressive and should i split them up , i have 2 ft tanks available to setup just no room to set them up in
would all 4 fish be ok in a 2ft by 1 ft footprint tank ?

Thanks for any advice andrew

 

[farm41]

Lucky you, I have been looking for them for 6 months, nothing yet.

 

[fishboy20]

hopefully you have access to some softwater (R/O, deionized, oak or almond leaves). this species very typically needs very soft water pH less then 6, hardness of 40 ppm or less to be successful for spawning. if you want to keep them all together into adulthood, I would recommend a tank of at least 36" long and 12" deep (90 cmX 30cm). If you want to keep as pairs a ten gallon tank can work with lots of hiding places. Make sure there isn't too much fighting between the males and females. it is considered a more delicate species to work with but very beautiful. certainly not a beginner's apisto from what i've read. hope this helps. i would recommend Romer's Dwarf Cichlid Atlas for more info. and it is a very good reference to turn to for info. like this.

 

[M0oN]

Being that I keep heckel discus which are highly sensitive variations of the discus species I could give you some advice on how to keep delicate fish healthy:
1. Bare bottom, and I mean nothing on the bottom of the tank, since apistogramma enjoy plants you could pot a few and put them in there but in general you're going to want to keep the bottom as clean as possible, the best way to achieve this is to have no substrate at all, this includes decorations as foods and mulm will gather underneath them.
2. There's a plant out there called Pothos, it's a vine plant, go buy one and cut some vines off, stick the stems into the water and let the vine hang over the back or sides of the tank, try to put as many as you possibly can in the water, after about 2 weeks the vines will grow roots...these roots are great for absorbing ammonia and nitrate from the waters.
3. Daily water changes of at least 25% to keep the nitrate levels down, at least start out this way, do some experimenting by monitoring your levels on a daily basis, they should always be kept as close to zero as possible and under 10 optimally.
4. Sponges over the prefilters, you can either go the cheap route and buy a car sponge at WalMart, cut a square about the same size as the pre-filter then cut an X into the sponge so that it can slide over the pre-filter. Or you can go the more professional looking route with AquaClear Quick Filter's...it widely depends on what filter you're using at the time. If you're using a sponge filter to begin with it's not necessary, but hang on back filters and canister's will collect too much debris without the sponge and cause nitrate problems, rinse the sponge daily in cold tap water, squeeze it thoroughly until the water runs clear.

For a better clarification of the sponge method visit: http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=7853
Towards the end of that post is one I made on the AquaClear Quick Filter method.

Here is a photograph of what the Pothos will look like when they develope roots, they're incredibly common plants, you can even find them at most supermarkets...

Variation in diet is also incredibly important, ideally you could get some salmon and raw shelled shrimp, mix them in a food processor and freeze it overnight, feed the fish very small amounts of this and alternate betewen somthing like Ocean Nutrition Formula 1 and Ocean Nutrition Formula 2 foods.

Always a good idea to have some formalin and hex-a-mit on hand in case problems arise, both are fairly tame medications that treat a wide variety of external and internal parasites and at times a proactive medicating regimen can mean the difference between life and death in your fish.

Hope all that helps, anyone can feel free to correct what I've said as these are mainly discus related care tips, but as far as I know apisto's and discus share very close characteristics as far as needs go.

Enjoy,
Jason

 

[fishgeek]

I have r/o so no probs on water
I was quite interested in whether these fish are delicate , i have found apisto's to be fairly hardy, or whther they just have specific soft acidic clean water requirements which when catered for should see the fish do aswell as other apisto species

Are they fom the aggie group?

Thanks for all the feedback so far
Andrew

 

[M0oN]

Some species of south american fish are just more nitrate sensitive then others is all, when people speak of delicate it's really a broad term.

I've seen discus survive temperature drops of 30 degree's and increases to the point of where the water was literally boiling, nitrite levels reading as high as 5.0 ppm for two weeks etc.

The real explanation would be long term exposure to poor water conditions, namely high nitrate levels. The easiest way to counter this is daily water changes OR the Pothos plant I suggested, either way you should probably expect to be doing at least 2 water changes a week and if you really want good healthy spawning fish daily changes are obviously the best way to go about it.

They are cichlids, afterall, and living creatures...you simply have to treat them as such and they should thrive.

Don't know much about what genus and such they're from...but I'd imagine you'll do fine with these guys as long as you show them the TLC they deserve.

 

[Neil]

Andrew,

have been offered some A Elizbethea at fantastic price(20£ a pair)

Jump on it. They are great fish that are hard to find, but be prepared for a little work and opossible frustration.

and was wondeing if anyone with experience of keeping these fish could advise me on a suitable set up
I have read that they are delicate although if this just means need clean water then that will be ok

I have found them to be hardy fish that are not particularly delicate when given the appropriate conditions. Unfortunately, more than just clean water is necessary, although that is the primary concern. Fishboy20 was right when he said this species needs very soft, acidic water for spawning, but I believe that it is important for long-term husbandry as well.

Are they as hardy as other apisto species ?

In soft, acidic water, I have always found them to be quite hardy.

Do they require more acdic softer water

I will address the breeding issue here. IMO they require very soft, acidic water to successfully hatch the eggs. It is not so much the laying that is the problem, it is the hatching. I suspect that virtually any mineral content in the water damages the eggs and severly decreases the chance for successful hatching. However, I will say that I have heard of elizabethae spawns in water not as soft and acidic as I am suggesting, which would be 4.5 pH and 20-30µS/cm. I just have not had luck with anything above that.

How much space would be advisable for 2 pair , supposedly, still juvenile and not much over 1 inch in length

Anything is fine for the time being, but you will need to give them some very large quarters soon, as they are very aggressive and intolerant of conspecifics. My advice would be to split them up and keep both pairs in heavily structured tanks of no less than 15g, and more appropriately a 20L.

Will the males be aggressive and should i split them up , i have 2 ft tanks available to setup just no room to set them up in
would all 4 fish be ok in a 2ft by 1 ft footprint tank ?

Yep, for now. They will be OK until you find room to set up 2 tanks. These are great animals. They are pretty rare and one of the most sought-after apistos around. You should find the trouble worth it! Just ask Matt

Good luck!

Neil

 

[fishgeek]

thanks very much neil

by the way is there any chance that we can have some sort of fish dictionary , i mean i have trouble with all the gallons and stuff, it seems you americans call tanks by gallons and the english call them by feet
i'm australian living in the u.k and confused

what is the average dimensions for these 10G 15G 20G etc

thanks again for all the infor andrew

 

[M0oN]

thanks very much neil

by the way is there any chance that we can have some sort of fish dictionary , i mean i have trouble with all the gallons and stuff, it seems you americans call tanks by gallons and the english call them by feet
i'm australian living in the u.k and confused

what is the average dimensions for these 10G 15G 20G etc

thanks again for all the infor andrew

Gallons are measurements based by volume, you can go to http://www.google.com and do a search for conversions, look for "gallon to liter conversion"

Also, one foot is equal to 12 inches, the same thing can be done to figure these things out at http://www.google.com

Hope that helps, if you can't find any let me know and I'll post a link to one

 

[fishboy20]

Here in the states the demensions of a 10 gallon are approx. 20"X10"X12" (50cmX25cmx30cm), 15 gallon are approx. 24"X12"X12" (60cmX30cmX30cm) and 20L are approx. 30"X12"x12" (75cmX30cmX30cm). Hope this helps!

 

[fishgeek]

right got ya , english 2 footer roughly equates to US 15G

thanks everyone

 

[farm41]

A 20H is also 24x12 but 16" high

 

[fishgeek]

setting up a tank 33x15 footprint and 18 deep
just putting r/o only in there whilst no fish and was going to watch what happens with pH etc

few pieces of aged wood , have been out of water for about 6 mths, not sure how much they migh leach tannins and drop the pH

also plants , not sure how they will do in such soft water

any further suggestions matt?

 

[M0oN]

Straight RO water isn't goign to give you accurate pH readings no matter what, the actual pH of pure RO is 7.0 and I can find you links that explain in length why that is, but tests won't give you any readings you can count on.

Should always mix at least 1/4 of tap water with RO water into the total volume of the tank to try and keep things stable, plus the fish need minerals from the water to stay healthy.

Don't know too much about plants in soft waters, but I'd imagine the driftwood won't cause any major problems with the pH, it takes A LOT of tannin to alter the pH (unless you're using straight RO water).

 

[farm41]

I always add at least 10% tap to my tanks when changing water, that is just for the growout and breeding tanks.

The planted tanks get it straight out of the tap, I'm on a well. Ph 6.8, Kh 5, Gh 10.

RO water is not conducive for plant growth, takes all the goodies out that the plants need. Save it for the breeding tanks. The only instance I could see using RO water in a planted tank would be for water that is very,very hard, and then just cut it down to a Kh of 4-8.

JMHO

 

[fishgeek]

Im on liquid rock here in london, hence apisto's arent that popular as they dont do in tap water round here

Thought i'd play a bit whilst no fish in tank and see what happens over the next few days with the water parameters

Just r/o today with wood and plants , as yet no change in ph with wood, it is old though so most of the tannins will have leached out before

Wanted the plants to help diffuse any aggression and give some hiding places for any fish that might get bullied

Do you guys think the tank is big enough for 4 fish?
I dont really have room for another tank, unless i evict the flat mate and fill his room with tanks
Actually a little larger than i first guesed , roughly 170 litres or 6 cubic feet

Asto the plant side , do i understand that these guys live in waters with no mineral content and no plant growth, or do the plants survive by gtting nutrition from soil/substrate bound minerals of the river bed?

Andrew