Multiple M. ramirezi

[rpiotr01]

First off, hi everyone, I'm new to these forums

My question is about the social behavior of Blue Rams. I'm in the beginning stages of setting up my new planted tank, so any fish additions won't be for quite a while, but I'm still thinking about eventual inhabitants.

I'm looking for peoples' experiences with keeping multiple rams, not in pairs, because I'm not interested in having just one pair, but just in a group. Ideally I'd like to keep 6 of them.

The tank is approx. 65 gallons, 48X18 footprint, 17in. tall. As I said this is going to be planted rather heavily, mainly with crypts, anubias, different java fern strains and e. tenellus. As you may be able to tell by the plant selection there is also going to be plenty of driftwood hardscape in there. In a way I'm designing the tank for a species of dwarf cichlid - to make the back, sides and middle region as jungle-like as possible, while leaving enough open space in the front for free swimming. I figure to have a fairly large school of glolights or cardinals as well, plus otos and Amanos.

But just based on the dimensions and the nature of rams, does it seem doable? I've read of a few instances of people keeping groups of 6-8 in larger tanks, but for the most part people seem to want to keep them in pairs. I understand, of course, that some may pair off, but I think I've been pretty clear on what I'm going for. :wink:

Thanks for any info

 

[Apistomaster]

muliti rams

You go right ahead and get 6 or more rams but try to keep multiple pairs. You are providing them with an optimal set up and the various pairs will set up there own little territories and proceed with their normal biology. Squabbles will arise but it's mostly posturing. They are more social than Apistogramma and generally monogamous. Groups of rams are more fun than single pair and will make a beautiful display. You would probably enjoy a shoal of pencil fish and hatchet fish to add a little action to top 1/3 of the water column. If you choose hatchets I strongly advise a few weeks in a QT tank. Silvers are the hardier compared to the small marbles. Marbles are ich magnets and usually need a lot of TLC. LFS's often have complete wipe outs with new ones.
If you can find them, Nannostomus trifasciata, are among the most colorful of the pencils for the price. 12 makes a nice school plus 6 or 8 silver hatchets.
Larry

 

[rpiotr01]

Thanks for the reply, sounds good

Yeah, I did think of pencil fish, but I've read that they can be a bit nippy/ slightly aggressive amongst themselves, though that could just be Beckford's pencils.

 

[Mike Wise]

Pencilfish are not schooling fish, so 1 or 2 in a breeding tank is fine. Most of the aggression is between males.

 

[TetraFreak]

Also, if you're NOT interested in breeding the rams...

You may want to find your "6 pack" from a breeder and set it all up with siblings! Sure, there's a possibility of breeding, but agression will be even less this way.

I had 6 Bolivian Rams in a 55 Gal that were all siblings and they were so much fun to watch. They all got along great and I even caught them schooling with my lemon tetras on a few occasions!

and I concur with the pencilfish & Hatchets. Also perhaps some Tetras. Lemons are a beautiful Yellow when happy.

 

[Apistomaster]

I have bred and raised beckfordi pencils and the 75 I raised schooled. I have 13 Trifasciatus Pencils in a 75gal with 10 young Heckel discus and they school. Since it is a 65 gallon community tank why would you want 1 or 2?
Pencil fish are not aggressive unless you happen to be a newly hatched brineshrimp. I guess it's a matter of relative perspectives. Lemon Tetra are nice for the middle zone, they are an under appreciated fish. Black Phantom Tetra look good with Lemon teras, too.

 

[Apistomaster]

I just had to check out what Aquaurium Atlas Vol. 1, H.A. Baensch, had to say about pencilfish, "should be kept in groups, a peaceful schooling fish."

 

[rpiotr01]

Well thanks for all the additonal replies

tetrafreak, I am absolutely not interested in breeding the rams. I understand that they may breed, but I'd much rather let nature take its course if that should happen. That is one of the main benefits of having a large school of tetras or even pencils - possible fry control. I think that's getting one step ahead of myself, first task will be taking care of the water so that they're healthy and vibrant enough to breed :tongue: Glad to hear of your good experience with keeping multiples.

As for other fish in the tank, I was planning on a large-ish school of a colorful small form of tetra, say cardinals, glowlights or green fires, and then a smaller school of something more contrasy like penguin tetras or pencilfish. It'll depend on how the tank comes together with the plants.

As a follow up, can anyone recommend a breeder, preferably one that will ship? Right now I planned on going through someone on Aquabid, there seems to be someone selling selling groups of juvinille rams on there often enough. Just want to see if there's anyone out there specifically worth looking to. Thanks!

 

[TetraFreak]

Aquiring Rams...

Bolivians are much hardier than blues so you may want to look at going with the Bolivians.

Place to start:
look at and contact ApistoDave first, he sells on Aquabid. I hear that all his stock is top quality and he sells in pairs. he may even have a line on some "Wilds" for you, but keep in mind that they will be more $$$.

As far as Blues, try to find a US Breeder as the Asian breeders quality tends to be problematic in many cases due to hormones and hybrid-izing. Might want to check with user "Cathy G" on here as I believe she breeds blues as well as Bolivians.


Good luck!

-TF

 

[Mike Wise]

There are differing degrees of schooling. Pencilfish do not true schooling fish. They do not school for protection like most tetras (Characids) who often change direction at the same time, a method for confusing predators. Pencilfish, instead, form loose groups, and members wander away from each other at times. Males can actually be very aggressive to other males that swim near them. Fortunately it is mostly ritualistic & little damage is done other than a nipped fin. They almost never bother fish, other than those of their own species. Pencilfish (Lebiasinids) after all are more closely related to the solitary predatory carcaciforms like Hoplias & Erythrinus than to true schooling characids. The Baensch Atlases are excellent books for the average hobbyist. They provide enough information for properly keeping the fish discussed, but are seriously lacking in finer details, like behavior. I didn't suggest keeping 1 or 2 pencilfish in a large community tank. What I said was, "Pencilfish are not schooling fish, so 1 or 2 in a breeding tank is fine." The same cannot be said for true schooling fish like Lemon Tetras. If only 1 or 2 are kept, the fish show obvious signs of stress (continual hiding, duller colors, etc.). One or 2 pencilfish in a tank with only a breeding pair of dwarf cichlids behave much the same as in a community tank with many fish.