Looking For Advice (A. Borelli)

[Frogbytez]

As stated in the thread title, I'm hoping for some advice! I want to set up a 40g tank for an A. Borelli male. It'll be some time before I get one as I want the tank to be more mature and grown in before he makes an entrance. It's an already established tank, but I've ripped things up a bit by adding a sand cap (I didn't want to remove the gravel underneath for plant reasons, sand is apparently harder for them to grow in) and moving plants around. I was wondering if it would be possible to keep the tank unheated as the room temperature is 70-74 degrees or roughly 21-23 Celsius? (it's usually hanging around 72)

I remember reading through an old thread here where Mac said 68-72 would be a good permanent mean temp, but I don't remember specific context and just want to be sure. If it's possible to keep them unheated at that temp, are there any opinions/experiences on keeping them with medaka ricefish or white cloud mountain minnows? I know this might not be the best place to ask for community tank recommendations, but I figured I would give it a go lol.

It's fully intended to be a display tank with zero breeding intent whatsoever, I don't have the time, money, and resources to keep up with a project like that at the moment. I'll include a picture of the current tank setup so you all can get a feel for what's going on. A lot of things are still feeling pretty random as a fair portion of the plants are in temporary locations. (Buce Kedagang, dwarf aquarium lily, and much of the windelov Java fern being prime examples) Once I have more hardscape and the plants have grown enough to be split and replanted, it'll be a lot better. (Hopefully lol)
Another great example of the randomness is the string of crypts down the middle that are all tiny plantlets I split off when I bought some c. Nurii, yay for 12-13 plants in one purchase lol. Ideally I would like the entire right hand side (from the rightmost dwarf chain sword to the coconut hut/cholla wood) to be planted around/along with a large rock/cave structure made with more of the rocks on the left. I do want to leave a small clearing open on the left for feeding just for ease of cleaning instead of worrying about sucking up plants.

(All current fish will be rehomed, the only thing that will stay is my shrimp)

Any and all replies, inquiries, comments, etc. are very much appreciated!

 

[Mike Wise]

Since it is a community tank and not for breeding (not sure how successful you will from keeping the White Clouds from breeding) you should be fine with the different species and the tank temperature. You write that you plan to add a sand cap. I don't know how successful you will be from keeping the sand separate from the gravel. I would expect the sand to eventually mix with the gravel. If the sand is only for the apisto's sand sifting behavior you might want to consider putting in a small "sand pit" somewhere and leaving the rest in gravel.

 

[Frogbytez]

Thanks for the reply! I already put sand on top so I guess we'll see how that goes haha. If I need to I'll figure something out, but for now I think I should be able to keep it with the sand on top. The layer is probably close to an inch thick so I'm hoping that is going to be deep enough. I should have clarified on the breeding though, I meant that I don't want to breed any apistos. I'm fine with the other fish breeding if they end up doing that, but I'm not going to feed the tank any extra if I see fry or otherwise prevent fry deaths. I probably will have the White Clouds breed their own community just so that I don't need to buy them all lol. I imagine that scaling back on conditioning foods would bring them out of a breeding state? I do have an LFS near me that would most likely take any extra fish if things got too crowded.
Also, do you have any advice with the scape? I know a lot of folks on here would most likely be going for biotopes and that sort of thing. Even though it'll only be one male I want to make sure there's ample hiding/hang out spots for him to choose from.

 

[Frogbytez]

I would expect the sand to eventually mix with the gravel. If the sand is only for the apisto's sand sifting behavior you might want to consider putting in a small "sand pit" somewhere and leaving the rest in gravel.

Ah, forgot to mention in the longer reply. I have tried a "sand pit" type deal before in a different tank and I HATED it. It mixed with the gravel like crazy because I tried to vacuum the gravel and it would suck the sand up the tube from the side. -__- I thought I'd at least try it as a cap because I really didn't want to deal with that again lol

 

[KenL]

Ah, forgot to mention in the longer reply. I have tried a "sand pit" type deal before in a different tank and I HATED it. It mixed with the gravel like crazy because I tried to vacuum the gravel and it would suck the sand up the tube from the side. -__- I thought I'd at least try it as a cap because I really didn't want to deal with that again lol

If you just have sand (or perhaps even just sand on top) then the substrate does not need vacuumed as any mulm just sits on top or gets dealt with by a filter.

 

[MacZ]

If you just have sand (or perhaps even just sand on top) then the substrate does not need vacuumed as any mulm just sits on top or gets dealt with by a filter.

There are two kinds of mulm. What is left from leaves and wood is good and should be kept in the tank, as it deals with fish waste very effectively. Mulm from feces and food leftovers though should be removed.

You can support the former by adding leaves early on, keeping a low stocking density and feeding modestly.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

..... I have tried a "sand pit" type deal before in a different tank and I HATED it. It mixed with the gravel like crazy because I tried to vacuum the gravel and it would suck the sand up the tube from the side.

Very few of us vacuum our substrates. I don't want to disturb the substrate, I want "natural processes" to occur. Have a look at: <"https://www.swisstropicals.com/library/aquarium-biofiltration/"> - you may need to scroll down the page to reach the article.

If you like a very tidy tank, where you actively are in "control", then Apistogramma probably aren't the best fish for you -
<"https://www.seriouslyfish.com/all-the-leaves-are-brown/">.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Mike Wise]

Old habits die hard it seems. I gravel clean more or less like I did when I used undergravel filters way (way) back when. I still use the same fine gravel/coarse sand that I did back then (I'm cheap). Still I don't recommend this for new hobbyists. Just test periodically for 'dead spot' where SO2 might build up.

 

[Frogbytez]

Thanks for the replies everyone! The advice is very much appreciated. Honestly if I didn't have to vacuum that would be great. I don't vacuum much as it is, and the largest vacuum I did recently was before I added the sand just to make sure nothing was going to get nasty under there. (may not have been the right move, but what's done is done I suppose) I had recently bought some plants online and the root systems of a decayed/frost damaged crypt SMELLED like a crypt once I found it again...
It will be moderately stocked, and I'm trying to get a bit of a shrimp army going to help clean up any extra food that makes its way to the substrate or onto plants. I know all the fish I want to keep will be predating on the baby shrimp so I want it to be a strong colony beforehand.

Mulm from feces and food leftovers though should be removed.

Would it work if I disturb the mulm and siphon them out once they're stirred up a bit? That way the majority of the substrate is left undisturbed but I still get the mulm out.
Also, would you say that leaves are a requirement? I know that they're used a lot with apistos, I've just never used them before or looked into them much so I'm curious. If I need to add some leaf litter I'll do that

Still I don't recommend this for new hobbyists.

I'm not sure what category of hobbyist I'd be in, I've been keeping fish for close to 2 years but never kept a dwarf cichlid. So I suppose new hobbyist when it comes to apistos!
Once again, thanks everyone for the advice, and thanks to the admins and mods as well! I really hope forums like this are kept running for a long time because the advice and your experience is invaluable.

 

[Frogbytez]

Have a look at: <"https://www.swisstropicals.com/library/aquarium-biofiltration/"> - you may need to scroll down the page to reach the article.

Thanks for the links Darrel! I'll take a look at them when I get a chance

 

[anewbie]

So when i tried to catch a fish in my 10 i had to pull out some plants - these have been in there less than a year; in addition i had about 1/2 inch of mulim some of which got removed - anyway the point here is that if i disturb the substrate i'm going to break up all my lovely roots These dead roots will then turn brown and i don't think i have a point other than it is always a disaster when i mess with the substrate.

 

[Frogbytez]

So when i tried to catch a fish in my 10 i had to pull out some plants - these have been in there less than a year; in addition i had about 1/2 inch of mulim some of which got removed - anyway the point here is that if i disturb the substrate i'm going to break up all my lovely roots These dead roots will then turn brown and i don't think i have a point other than it is always a disaster when i mess with the substrate.

Oh no!! Those plants are so gorgeous. Are you meaning that I shouldn't vacuum the substrate? Or something else?
The tank I'm setting up is a 40 gallon, and whenever I've needed to catch something it's been relatively easy. The worst offenders were some celestial pearl danios that were put there temporarily from another tank. I have a large net that I use that I guide the fish into with a second net. There's space enough for me to do so, so I'm not overly concerned about messing up the substrate while trying to catch things

 

[anewbie]

Oh no!! Those plants are so gorgeous. Are you meaning that I shouldn't vacuum the substrate? Or something else?
The tank I'm setting up is a 40 gallon, and whenever I've needed to catch something it's been relatively easy. The worst offenders were some celestial pearl danios that were put there temporarily from another tank. I have a large net that I use that I guide the fish into with a second net. There's space enough for me to do so, so I'm not overly concerned about messing up the substrate while trying to catch things

I have no clue what i'm sayng other than that i never vacuum the substrate it is too messy down there and i'm tried of making a mess.

That crypt is actually pretty nice on both sides - i believe it is keei - one of the nicer plants i traded for - having a bucket full of nurii make for good trades.

 

[Frogbytez]

I have no clue what i'm sayng other than that i never vacuum the substrate it is too messy down there and i'm tried of making a mess.

Ah ok, gotcha. I guess I'll just see how it goes. If I vacuum and it ends up really nasty then I'll have learned my lesson lol.
Indeed, very nice! I actually just got some nurii. Got close to 13 plants for 12.99 so I'm pretty happy with that lol. Some of them are small off shoots that had enough roots to split them off, but still. One of the bigger plants seems to have melted, but oh well. Can't win em all haha

 

[MacZ]

Also, would you say that leaves are a requirement? I know that they're used a lot with apistos, I've just never used them before or looked into them much so I'm curious. If I need to add some leaf litter I'll do that

Leaf litter and fine sand, yes. I'd never keep an Apisto tank without these.

Would it work if I disturb the mulm and siphon them out once they're stirred up a bit? That way the majority of the substrate is left undisturbed but I still get the mulm out.

Sure. That's the usual way.

I'm not sure what category of hobbyist I'd be in, I've been keeping fish for close to 2 years but never kept a dwarf cichlid. So I suppose new hobbyist when it comes to apistos!

A dwarf cichlid beginner for sure.

I remember reading through an old thread here where Mac said 68-72 would be a good permanent mean temp, but I don't remember specific context and just want to be sure. If it's possible to keep them unheated at that temp, are there any opinions/experiences on keeping them with medaka ricefish or white cloud mountain minnows? I know this might not be the best place to ask for community tank recommendations, but I figured I would give it a go lol.

I personally would indeed keep them in an unheated tank. But not with whiteclouds or medaka. Simply because both breed like Guppy and there will be little food left that reaches the bottom where Apistos like to feed.

 

[Frogbytez]

I personally would indeed keep them in an unheated tank. But not with whiteclouds or medaka. Simply because both breed like Guppy and there will be little food left that reaches the bottom where Apistos like to feed.

Would it work if I fed the apisto with something that stays on the bottom? If that doesn't work what other species would you recommend for tank mates? I see pencil fish a lot on this forum, but they aren't really what I'm looking for. (also mainly seen that as dithers for breeding)

 

[MacZ]

Would it work if I fed the apisto with something that stays on the bottom?

Not really. The probnlem is, the other fish will either eat it up on the way down or will follow it to the boittom and A. borellii usually don't chase other species away from the food.

 

[MacZ]

If that doesn't work what other species would you recommend for tank mates?

Hyphessobrycon amandae or even better H. elachys.

 

[Frogbytez]

Hyphessobrycon amandae or even better H. elachys.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll take a look!

Edit: Just took a look at the H. elachys, those look amazing

 

[anewbie]

They are ok - i have some Hyphessobrycon negodagua which seem to be more aggressive at eating and are also sadly a bit larger so they would probably swarm frys 'cept i never seen them go low - hum. That reminds me my keri tetra never seem to go low either my nijjensi bred with them and i was shocked they didn't weed them out for me. Live and learn.

The dithers i like the most are n. marilyn, n. margita and morse code tetra - this is a morse code:

Lovely critter.

It is sort like an expensive ember tetra - another tetra i've very found of are ruby tetra (axelrodia reisei); they are small an inexpensive but in large numbers rather nice.

Sadly there are 100's if not 1000's of smaller tetra though not all work well with breeding dwarf cichild. One of these days - maybe in another life i'll create a giant tank with nothing but 1 inch (or smaller) tetras.

There are some nice rasboras but i've moved away from the for various reasons even though i really like some of them like emerad eye, kubotai and chilli to name a few. And then there are the sub inch barbs like bumble bees with their little stingers.