laura from oregon electric blue and GBR

[lauraleevt]

Hello all
I have been a breeder of Rams for only a year now and constantly learning new things.
Now I have reached the point I need experienced help figuring out these wonderful little fish.
Thank you
Laura

 

[gerald]

Welcome Laura -- Is there a specific question you meant to ask?

 

[lauraleevt]

Biggest question is why do I loose 5 or so Electric blue ram fry a day.
Here is what happens
I allow parents to raise their fry up to around 3 weeks
I then transfer them to their own tank which has a seasoned sponge filter and water is checked at o nitrite 0 ammonia 6.2 ph
I do check for ammonia spikes but with 30 percent water change daily I don't worry to much just check.
They do well for a few days then I notice a few separate from the group and they move to upper top corner of tank. Then they don't swim straight but seem to be pointed head down like they are going to swim to bottom of tank. Within a day or so of that behavior they die.
I do 30 percent water change daily while vacuuming the bare bottom tank.
I use tap water to refill with prime added.
I have way too many tanks to use aged water.
I feed live brine every morning frozen baby brine and first bits at noon and then live brine and krill at night.
I raise thousands of angelfish with this process with little to no loss.
What do I need to change to keep these guys alive and what is happening to them ??
Thank you

 

[gerald]

So they do fine up to about a month old, then a few each day start the head-down behavior and die 1-2 days later, right? Do you freeze your own baby BS, or buy it frozen? I wonder if it might have partly spoiled before freezing? Rams are a bit more sensitive than angelfish, so bacteria or fungi frozen in the food might affect them more. What temp are you keeping them? Rams kept cooler than 78 F might be more disease-susceptible, like discus. Maybe some intestinal protozoan infection is getting them? It's also possible there might be some genetic defect in the fancy domestic strains that shows up at that age (pure speculation). If you end up losing the same proportion form each batch (say 25% or 50%) then that might suggest a genetic component. Let us know if you figure it out, or any other clues ....

 

[lauraleevt]

I hatch my brine shrimp and rinse about 4 times before feeding and do not hold any it is used immediately or tossed.
I then bleach my shrimp hatchery and start a new batch. I never go over 26 hours on a batch.
I use hikari frozen baby brine for the non live feedings .
I keep temp on all fish at 80 up to 82.
I have never treated with meds as I do not know what I can use on such small fish or what I'm even treating for.
However in this tank I started half dose of paraguard 3 days ago out of desperation and noticed a slight slowing down today only 3 dead.
Was it meds or just natural end to this??
I have seen what is called lethal gene before in parrots and guess could happen in fish I guess time will tell.
I plan on out crossing survivors to GBR.
Makes me crazy to work so hard and not understand what's happening.

 

[lauraleevt]

 

[gerald]

Do they look a bit bloated before they die, and is their breathing more rapid than normal? My guess is a protozoan or bacterial infection in the gut ... maybe something angels carry but are less sensitive to than rams ??? If paraguard helps, this seems likely. FLUbendazole is another good med for mysterious gut infections (also ich, velvet, hydra, some flukes & nematodes) and is pretty safe on very tiny fry. Betta and killifish breeders use it against velvet, a notorious problem on fry.

 

[lauraleevt]

Thank you I will try the flubendazole what brand does that sell under?
I don't notice them breathing faster but hard to see however the fact they stay at top is a good sign they are seeking oxygen.
Thank you for all your help.
I try very hard to keep them clean feed clean and daily water changes hate it they got sick.
Does anyone do preventive treatments on fry ? Or have suggestions on how to avoid this.
Thanks
Laura

 

[deliriouz]

I have had the same problems with electric blue fry dying off at week 2-4 post free swimming. Been breeding three generations of electric blues over the last 2 years. My impression is that eb fry are genetically weaker than normal rams. Like you, I have bred and raised plenty of other fish including discus, apistos, tetras, plecos, bettas etc and not come anywhere close to the fry mortality i see with eb fry. The eb fry do look morphologically normal and feeding well before they suddenly die, so I suspect it is an internal organ defect. I was hoping to breed this gene out, but so far I'm afraid its been the same story. Perhaps the gene defect is linked to the blue color.

 

[lauraleevt]

I agree that it is defective gene or lethal gene so frustrated.
Only thing new on this batch is the way they look before dieing head pointed downwards as if they were going to swim straight to bottom? Didn't know if that was a clue to something or part of dieing process.

 

[deliriouz]

I am also surprised that you managed to get the parents to look after the fry. I haven't had that much luck with my colony - either eggs get eaten or fry soon after they swim. Have had to artificially hatch them and care for the fry from day 1! Most make it to two weeks and then the die off starts. I only get <5% of the fry after 2weeks grow out into adulthood. If they didn't look so darn good, I would have given up on breeding them long ago! Neon blue acaras and steel blue apistos can't match the blue of these rams.

 

[lauraleevt]

I just leave them to it figure better parent raise. I have a trio of electric blue they raise together so cute.
Right now looks like 60 percent at 4 weeks
I get 90 percent out of GBR and 99 percent out of angelfish all parent raised.

 

[deliriouz]

60% is great..better than most for eb I'd venture to guess. Keep doing what you have been doing cause I don't think you are doing anything wrong there

 

[lauraleevt]

Thank you the encouragement
My goal to increase live rate to 90 percent or know the reason why. Lol
I'm always trying to figure things out glad there are places like this to go.

 

[Darkstorm1976]

I recently gave up after coming to the conclusion some strains are just too affected by fluke. I've lost male after male, due to this, rapid breathing and dead within days after purchase. Not even enough time to treat. I lost a magnificent male GBR after 7 months of ownership. He was a large male (my first), who previously had no health issues, he never showed any signs of wasting disease, his breathing was fine up until a week before his death, then he just nose dived I gave the female away a few days ago, perfectly healthy, had raised two fry to free swimming stage.
Some of them just can't cope with this parasite And being finicky with eating doesn't help when first purchased, as they need to accept food to help keep their appetite strong during treatment. I was lucky for 7 months though with this guy, and I still had a healthy female, but I wanted a change of direction, got fed up of loosing them

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=862253990501530

 

[lauraleevt]

Darkstorm
I totally understand the other night I sat in breeding room crying as I removed 5 week old dead and dieing electric blue rams..I have no idea what's wrong as you can see from thread I have been searching for answers
Thought I had it under control and they started again swimming head down lying on sides and dieing
I started a treatment for internal parasites yesterday
I don't know what else to do.
If I don't know what's causing I don't know how to fix or if can be fixed.
Ready to pay for someone to take dead ones and test them.
Or give up.
At least I'm not alone.
Thanks
Laura

 

[Darkstorm1976]

If they go up to the surface, that's usually when fluke has over ran them, and they can no longer cope. Mr Ram just disappeared one day, and I found him whilst doing a tank clean, dead It could be that what is killing the young, as being at such a delicate age, it could be your main problem, fluke isn't always visible to the eye, but flashing, then rapid breathing is the next symptom, before going to the surface for extra oxygen. Maybe treat the parents for fluke, not sure how the fry would cope with the treatment though :/

 

[gerald]

Laura -- if you decide to take some to a fish vet for analysis, bring LIVE fish, or freshly killed by dropping in icewater. Fish that have died at tank temperature immediately become overgrown with bacteria, fungi, and scavenging protozoa -- this may happen even before they stop breathing. The parasites (if any) that caused the problem will be much harder to find and identify.

 

[deliriouz]

As long as you don't overdose, fry will tolerate flubendazole well. It's probably one of the many causes of sudden death ram syndrome.