Large community needs help.

[ancientaquarist]

I am in the process of setting up a 125 gallon community tank with tremendous groves of plants. I have planned for soft water (5.5-6.), slightly acid, a constant temperature of 82 degrees.
Will the following fishes work under these conditions:
7 marble hatchets
2 pr Colisa lalia
3 pr Colisa chuna
trio of Trichogaster leeri
1 pr Colisa fasciata
15 cardinal tets
9 black neons
5 algae eaters
6-7 adult discus
1 pr Aequidens maroni
3 festivums
German Blue rams
assorted genera of dwarf cichlids including A. cockatooides (red)

This is my first aquarium since 1961. I had my first in 1945 set up by my
grandfather with a pair of red platies and 2 corydoras. I am feeling jittery because so much has changed-many more species-much more science. TIA for your comments and alternative suggestions.

 

[Randall]

Large community needs help

I am in the process of setting up a 125 gallon community tank with tremendous groves of plants. I have planned for soft water (5.5-6.), slightly acid, a constant temperature of 82 degrees.
Will the following fishes work under these conditions:
7 marble hatchets
2 pr Colisa lalia
3 pr Colisa chuna
trio of Trichogaster leeri
1 pr Colisa fasciata
15 cardinal tets
9 black neons
5 algae eaters
6-7 adult discus
1 pr Aequidens maroni
3 festivums
German Blue rams
assorted genera of dwarf cichlids including A. cockatooides (red)

Dear Michael,

Welcome to our forum and welcome back to the hobby! Yes, much has changed in recent years, let alone since 1961!

A planted 125-gallon community tank sounds great. If I may share my thoughts with you, please;

- General hardness (GH) of 5.5-6 is fairly hard and will result in an alkaline pH, so if your looking to achieve moderately soft water with a slightly acidic pH, GH of about 4 is appropriate.

- Although 82-degree F water is fine for Microgeophagus ramirezi (rams) and Symphysodon sp. (discus) your other fish may suffer at such a high temperature. It may be a good idea to narrow your fish selection to species that will thrive in the temperature of your choosing. In a general community situation, 76 degrees F works well, but this is too cool for rams and discus.

- In the wild, Mesonauta festivum preys on Cheirodon axelrodi (cardinal tetra) as its primary food source. Also, M. festivum is a much more aggressive fish than most dwarf cichlids including Apistogramma spp. and
Cleithracara maronii. Apistogramma spp. and C. maronii together in 125-gallon tank, however, should make an excellent combination.

- When your cichlids start spawning, the larger labyrinth (anabantoid) fishes might make easy pickings of their fry. It might be a good idea to limit your selection to a group of one smaller, peaceful labyrinth species only; i.e., Colisa chuna (honey gourami) or the equivlent.

Hope this helps you out a bit.

Good luck!

Randall Kohn

 

[2la]

Large community needs help

- General hardness (GH) of 5.5-6 is fairly hard and will result in an alkaline pH, so if your looking to achieve moderately soft water with a slightly acidic pH, GH of about 4 is appropriate.

Randall, I'm sure you didn't intend this but I wanted to point this out for those who may not know. General hardness has no consistent bearing on pH; changing one does not change the other. It is carbonate hardness, referred to as KH, that does affect pH.

 

[ancientaquarist]

RE: soft, acid water for a community tank at 82F

Randall, Gary and Neil-
Thanks for all your interest. How would festivums do with somewhat larger characins-Head and Tail Lights; Serpae; Glowlights; dwarf pencil fishes? Are the albino festivus gentler? I remember that the albino form of the common "Paradise Fish" was almost an "angel."?

As I am not interested in breeding, certainly not in the planted community tank, I do not care if any fry survive. Can I therefore reintroduce the collection of gouramies as originally stated??

I knew the maroni(i)s would do fine-suppose the largest fishes with the discus-the main reason for all these plans were albino festivus. Would that change things??

Above all, if I restrict myself to a pair of rams what other 6 genera and species of dwarf cichlids, pairs or trios-e.g. kribensis, cockatuoides. might
I include in the community??

Thanks once again for your thoughtful answers and generous use of your time! I felt that a Ph of 4 was too acidic-what are my parameters of
acidity, (conductivity), hardness vs. softness and other water characteristics which MUST be considered.?I expect to use a powerful, QUIET, outside filter and a sponge bio inside filter. As I am handicapped and will have no help I must keep major water changes to a minimum. I am installing an R/O system and shall keep 500 gallons of aged, R/Od water stored in a bathtub adjacent to the room with the aquarium to use as I need it. Evaporation is not a factor as my entire house needs more humidity.

Is there any species of corydoras cats that I could use as a trio in addition to a group of five dwarf algae eaters and two flying foxes. What is the objection, if any, to corys with discus? Remember I don't care about saving eggs or fry. If I choose to breed it will be in a second aquarium-well planted and including many flat and sloped surfaces. The community tank is meant to fascinate me and be a calm and beautiful aquarium. I have access to gorgeous locally bred young adults at very reasonable prices.

Warmly,

 

[Randall]

Large community needs help

- General hardness (GH) of 5.5-6 is fairly hard and will result in an alkaline pH, so if your looking to achieve moderately soft water with a slightly acidic pH, GH of about 4 is appropriate.

Randall, I'm sure you didn't intend this but I wanted to point this out for those who may not know. General hardness has no consistent bearing on pH; changing one does not change the other. It is carbonate hardness, referred to as KH, that does affect pH.

Dear Tula,

Well, yes, you are right; but it is my understanding that, typically, a KH value corresponds to 70-90% of GH value in most unaltered tap water. Using that formula, GH values of 5.5-6 should result in a fairly neutral pH.

Thanks for clearing things up.

Randall Kohn

 

[2la]

Randall, of course you are right. That general principle applies to most folks' tap water conditions and is thus a safe rule in most situations. I mainly mentioned it for those hobbyists who, like me, are heavily involved in high-tech planted tank setups, where it may be necessary to tweak certain aspects of water chemistry in order to achieve optimum plant growth. On occasion, it becomes desirable to increase KH (to buffer against pH crashes with CO2 injection) without affecting GH, and vice versa on rarer occasions. It is helpful to understand the interplay between KH, pH, and CO2 levels in such tanks as well, in order to ensure adequate CO2 concentrations for the plants.

Regards,

2la

 

[Neil]

ancientaquarist,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

The more animals that you keep, even in a large aquaria, the more difficult it is to cover all the potential issues that might be involved with each. If your desire is to keep discus as the focalpoint, then it is more significant to modify some of your other choices. For example, it is rarely a good idea to keep more than 3 to 4 species of cichlid, dwarf of otherwise in any home aquarium, no matter what the tank size. Discus will be one, festivums another, keyholes third, rams forth, Nannacara fifth, Apistogramma sixth, etc. Although these cichlids might occupy different areas of the tank, both vertically as well as horizontally, they still have larger territories than is provided in their closed environment. Regardless of the passive nature of many of these animals, you will still need to factor in individual personalities and changing issues (potential breeding) to the mix. As I understand it, you are looking for a slow-moving, easy-going type of tank. Any breeding or abberant behavior will throw this desired result off. All Cichlids have the potential to create problems for tankmates. I would think about trying 3 species of Cichlid in your set-up initially and then going from there. Discus, Keyholes, and Rams would be my choices. If they are all in accord, then try adding one of the other choices at a time. Festivum, Nannacara and Apistogramma would be more likely to be the aggressors in the tank and will fit in better if added after the other, more docile, Cichlids have established themselves.

With the addition of so many fish, including many dither/community species, there is little chance for successful breeding of the Cichlids in this set-up, but that doesn't mean they won't try. That is where the potential problems lie for all other inhabitants.

Good luck with this big project. It sounds like you are on the right path by your desire to truely research your choices well before you jump right in!

Neil

 

[aspen]

with your desire to keep sensitive fish, i would suggest that a way to make water changes as easy as possible from the beginning should be your first priority. i use a water reservoir and a pump to move water around. you could have a drain installed in the tank, and a pump in a reservoir under the main tank. simply turning a valve and draining, then filling from a reservoir and finally a water line plumbed in to fill this reservior would be good. setting things up with the idea that water changes will not be done frequently means that you are stuck with bullet-proof fish like c/a cichlids with no plants. any tank needs to be maintained properly to ensure success.

rick

 

[fishgeek]

most of the corydoras like cooler water so may not be so suitable for the heats the discus will require
saying that there were a few species that enjoy the warmer temperatures unfortunately at 28-30 C i think you are more likely to see bacterial probs in the cory's

I will ask on the cory forum for hot water prefering cory's for you

andrew

 

[ancientaquarist]

Thanks for the excellent advice. Here's my revision.

125 gallon community
foci-discus, cichlids, gouramies
5 marble hatchets-surface
1 pair Colisia lalia-surface & middle layer
2 pairs Colisa chuna-surface
1 pair Colisa fasciata-surface & middle layer
trio Trichogaster leeri-surface &middle layer
school of 9 Bleeding Heart Tetras-middle layer
1 flying fox-mid and lower layer
5-6 adult discus-middle and lower layer
1 pair Aequidens maroni(i)-mid and lower layer
trio German Blue Rams-lower level
1 pair Apistogramma cockatuoides "Triple Red"-lower level

fishes to be added if the balance is successful
1 pair festivus-mid and lower level
1 pair Nannacara sp.-lower level

Do you all feel this takes care of fish load, maintains slow, careful, deliberate movement but the tetras will move more and are showy?

Water soft-R/O-, slightly acid, 82F, slightly peaty-heavily planted with a
major piece of rooty driftwood-layered slate with a few natural caves.
Strong, quiet outside filter. Sponge bio filter. Two heaters-100 watts each.
Under tank heat mat. Excellent thermometer. Aeration-small bubbles at rear of tank as a curtain.

Dark substrate for heavy planting 2" rear-1/2" front. Excellent thermometer. Easily available-all flake foods. Discus pellets. Frozen foods.
Freeze dried foods. Live: black worms, earthworms, adult brine shrimps.
I will feed lightly 3-4 times each day with a one day semi-fast. 10-20%
of water changed twice a week. Thanks for your time and help!

 

[2la]

Bronze cories (C. aeneus) are so extensively farmed that they would be well suited to your tank's temperature. They also naturally come from warmer habitats.

 

[Neil]

Michael,

Do you all feel this takes care of fish load, maintains slow, careful, deliberate movement but the tetras will move more and are showy?

Yes, most of the fish that you have mentioned are not going to be racing around the tank much, but as I said before that you may have inevitable chasing with so many cichlids in the tank. That is just life in a cichlid tank. With heavy planting and careful choices of residents, that can be reduced.

Water soft-R/O-, slightly acid, 82F, slightly peaty-heavily planted with a
major piece of rooty driftwood-layered slate with a few natural caves.

Remember that you need to balance the "safe areas" of the tank with the amount of species of Dwarf Cichlids that you have in there. One large piece of wood will probably only act as one division of a territory and one residence. So you will definitely need some other thick plantings and numerous other caves or smaller pieces of wood. It would be helpful if all bottom cichlids had a safe hiding area. If the whole tank is very heavily planted, that will likely keep the ability for anyone to really have too many problems.

Strong, quiet outside filter. Sponge bio filter. Two heaters-100 watts each.
Under tank heat mat. Excellent thermometer. Aeration-small bubbles at rear of tank as a curtain.

Having 3 methods of aeration (filtration) might be overkill, even in a 120. I assume that you want the desired look that a wall of bubbles will provide, but remember that the more water movement and aeration you have the more CO2 will be minimized. If your tank is heavily planted with a source for good plant growth, filtration can be reduced.
You may want to post that aspect of your plan in the plant forum to get some suggestions from those who regularly contend with those issues and are more knowledgeable than I.

Dark substrate for heavy planting 2" rear-1/2" front.

Again, plant forum. There are numerous things to consider when using substrate. The depth and type are important for the types of plants you intend to use. You may even be able to use water-softening material in you substrate and reduce the need to use peat-filtered water in your changes.

Excellent thermometer. Easily available-all flake foods. Discus pellets. Frozen foods.
Freeze dried foods. Live: black worms, earthworms, adult brine shrimps.
I will feed lightly 3-4 times each day with a one day semi-fast. 10-20%
of water changed twice a week.

That sounds like your fish are going to be happy, well-fed critters.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Neil

 

[ancientaquarist]

New ideas and financial ruin from books.

Thank you Neil and all. I was en route to a parrot club meeting with Rascal on my shoulder and made a 2 minute stop at Tropicals of Tucson.
Six hours later I left with $ 525. worth of books on Neptroptical cichlids, all of the books on dwarfs, plants, characins, schooling fish, etc. Now I want them ALL :lol:

Suppose I replace my intended school of cardinal tets with Rasbora heteromorpha, drop the idea of festivus-could I still retain the gouramies,
discus and have 6-7 species of American dwarfs-rams, apistos, apistogrammoides, curviceps, nannacara and Aequidens maronii? Corydoras aeneus? One "Flying Fox" small group of algae eaters? I understand I may have to move dwarf cichlids who decide to spawn and become aggessive-I'd have a second planted tank -30 gallons-same water and lots of caves and stones and driftwood. How does this sound?
Anyone want to suggest 7-8 sp. of American dwarfs that will live together peacefully? I like the blockier (curviceps-Nannacara anomala shape) better than the elongated though there are several apistos I MUST have.
Can this work as a community??

 

[aspen]

i think you would be doing great to start the 29 gal and work into the big tank.

here's a bunch of beautiful planted tanks:

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/

if you can make anything close to any of the tanks in the small to med size you will be ready to 'go big'. one species of dwarf, some tetras and the algae eaters and away you go till you feel comfortable. the less stocking you do, the easier things are.

rick

 

[Neil]

Michael,

Suppose I replace my intended school of cardinal tets with Rasbora heteromorpha,

I think that the rasbora are fish that are a little faster moving than tetra, so that might go against your slow-moving philosophy.

drop the idea of festivus-could I still retain the gouramies,
discus and have 6-7 species of American dwarfs-rams, apistos, apistogrammoides, curviceps, nannacara and Aequidens maronii?

Most of these are appropriate for a community tank. However, it is very hard to say what a crowded addition with all of them will yield.

Corydoras aeneus? One "Flying Fox" small group of algae eaters?

These are fine.

I understand I may have to move dwarf cichlids who decide to spawn and become aggessive-I'd have a second planted tank -30 gallons-same water and lots of caves and stones and driftwood. How does this sound?

Good! I think that you will need it. And maybe more.

Anyone want to suggest 7-8 sp. of American dwarfs that will live together peacefully? I like the blockier (curviceps-Nannacara anomala shape) better than the elongated though there are several apistos I MUST have.
Can this work as a community??

All the species that you have listed can work in a community setting. As I said before, though, this is alot of cichlids to put into one tank. I can only tell you what is likely to be ideal, not what might be passable. The amount of Dwarf Cichlids that you want in this tank would be better split into other tanks or put into a 1,200, instead of a 120. It is not that it can't work or won't, but there is a large chance for multiple problems.

Neil

 

[ancientaquarist]

THANKS FOR YOUR GENEROUS USE OF YOUR TIME!

Neil- You are a real pal to spend the time to answer my reiterated questions. No room for a 1,200 gallon. I probably need a stream in Brazil. I love Brazil.

Someone suggested I start the 120 with 1 pr apistos, 1 pairt of rams,
1 pair of curviceps and the maroniis & discus-then slowly add more if WW III doesn't break out.

Sounds like a good plan to me. An increasing obsessed new forum member!

 

[ancientaquarist]

What a wonderful bunch of folks you are!

Dear Randall, Ken, Neil and all-
I can't adequately express my appreciation for all the collective time you guys have spent helping me get ready for the biggest change in my life since my second wife died in 2001. I know how overextended we all are and every aspect of modern life-before you add dwarf cichlids to your life yet you have all taken the time to help an old timer not make too many mistakes as he reawakens as an aquarist.

I'm still discouraged with all the water chemistry I must master and how miserable our water is out here in the Sonoran Desert-but Z-man's web site recommends KISS-"Keep it simple, stupid!" and G-d kinows I have too. My brain cells are ever more atrophied. Aging is not for the cowardly and when you add in a disability...yikes.

But I am remaining calm-something unusual for me-and am following the 12 step method of one day (book, concept, question, minute) at a time and if I can keep that up I won't become overwhelmed. Thanks all of you so much. Apisto.com can be proud of its members.

 

[aspen]

>>'I can't adequately express my appreciation for all the collective time you guys have spent ...'

michael, we all learn here, that's why we come here. i hope you visit often.

neil's sugestion of a 1200 gal was being facetious of course. i am sure many of us keep more species than you have mentioned, yet we use smaller tanks, 5 - 30 gal per species. this allows us the ability to keep the variety we want, without the cross species agression you will encounter by putting them all into the same tank.

i have no reason to believe that SOMEWHERE out there, a person exists who can master the planted tank and keep all of those fish together. but, it never worked for me. we try to put a community together that provides the level of tension that we want.

some things i know:

1. exp is the best teacher.
2. go slow and have fun.
3. watch the impulse buying.
4. always have an alternate plan.

go for the 30 first. it will provide a nice place to grow out your plant species, and to quarentine new fish. there's no rule that says that you can't set up the quarentine tank first, then get the big tank moving with fish/plants from there. it is easier to sort out a snail infestation in a 30 than in a 120!

rick

 

[ancientaquarist]

Large community needs help-continued.

Rick- Thanks. What a fabulous bunch of people on this forum. I think your four points are very useful. I had already decided to start with some German Blue Rams, the discus from an excellent local breeder, a pair of maroniis, and one pair of those fabulous new A. cockatuoides clones, Nannacara anomala and curviceps.

Once these have settled in as part of the large community I shall add new dwarfs a pair at a time. I've also decided to set up three tanks-max! the biggie, a 30 gallon for dwarfs with over active libidos and a second 30 for any fry that survive-not an important issue for me.

Two of the tanks will be well planted and have lots of complex little territories available. The fry tank will simply have some of my favorite corys and a thin substrate. I think forwarned is forarmed and G-d knows I've been forwarned. Maybe I'll be that mythical person who can do it. I sure hope so as I love the aquarium forming in my brain. Thanks for the good wishes. "Onward and ?ward in the aquarium!"